[F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3

Thu Jul 23 12:55:39 AKDT 2009

The AMA proposal does the same but actually makes it easier.  You’re still downgrading as you go, noting each time the radius changes.  The difference is that it doesn’t place the heavy emphasis on the beginning of the maneuver.  Seems contrary to the intent of pattern to make the First radius so much more important than the rest of the maneuver.  We always complain when people stop judging “after the snap” or such, and yet this rule basically says if you mess up the first pull…you’re done.    On the flip side, it does beat up the person who routinely flys tight on the top and open on the bottom type maneuvers as each change gets hit.  Not sure that’s bad though.

And I would still argue much more easy to judge in the case where you have (I always use the 8 sided since it’s the most egregious example) radii A,B,B,B,B,B,B,A…  The new method would result in 2 down grades that are fairly easy to spot.  The current method SHOULD have 6…but would likely have either 1 (as most judges would see the steady string of similar radii and only downgrade the last one, or 7 since they would have little ability to compare the last to the first after watching the whole maneuver.

Anyhow…that’s all I’ll say on it for now.  Seems unlikely that we’d get it changed..  I would like to see it in AMA from an ease of judging, and would also love for the rules to be consistent between the two.

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:31 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3

I like the current rule where “first radius” sets the standard.  The reason for this is that this allows the judge to watch and downgrade the maneuver as it unfolds, rather than think ‘backwards’ to determine how many radius changed against the predominately flown radii.  The rule is simple and easy to interpret the way it is, from my perspective.

Yes, this makes flying the first radius VERY important – you need a strategy to get it right:  entry speed, size, how far in/out you are, etc.

Thank You,
Jim w.

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Mark Hunt
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:43 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3

George,

You are correct.  If each consecutive radius is different, a downgrade would be applied to each (after the first radius).

-Mark

________________________________
From: GEORGE KENNIE <geobet4 at verizon.net>
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:26:59 AM
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3
I'm probably missing something here, but if you're comparing radii to radii, to radii, to radii, it seems to me that if a guy does 1 & 3 the same and 2 and 4 the same, then according  to
my understanding, if the severity of the down grade each time is equal to a two point deduction the guy gets penalized a total of 6 points whereas with the current rule, doesn't he only
get whacked with 4 ?  Sounds like it may be more punitive. No?

G.

----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Koopowitz<mailto:derekkoopowitz at sbcglobal.net>
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us<mailto:f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3

I think this is a good idea… it definitely makes it a lot easier to compare radii instead of trying to remember what the 1st one looked like and then drawing that comparison to all the radii when the maneuver is completed.

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us<mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us> [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:34 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3

I for one would love to see the 1st Radius rule changed to what we have proposed for AMA.  The proposal (submitted by Lance) uses a radius “change” as a downgrade.  I can go into a lot more detail if there is any interest or we think we can get some traction for it.

The basic premise is that the current rule is very hard to judge, and disproportionately weights the 1st radius over the rest.    Downgrading any CHANGE in radius allows you to simply compare the current radius to the previous one which is much simpler to judge, and given any number of scenarios produces a similar, if not more accurate score.

Anyone?

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:08 AM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: [F3A-Discussion] CIAM related news for F3

Everyone,

Welcome to the list – if you know of any F3A pilots in the USA that are not members of this list then please pass this information on to them so that they join in on the discussion.

There are several items that I want to share and to hopefully spur a discussion…

1.      If you would like to see a rule change made lets discuss it here so that we’re all on the same page as to why you’d like to make the rule change and to hopefully get agreement from everyone as to whether it would be a good idea to submit a rules change proposal.

2.      Rules change proposals must be submitted to the CIAM before November 15th, 2010 (that’s right – next year) – any rules change proposal submitted will be voted on at the March CIAM meeting in 2011 and will become effective in 2012.

3.      The P13/F13 and P15/F15 schedules need to be designed and submitted.  Any NAC (country) can do this but the schedules must be totally vetted and tested with all bugs worked out prior to submission – we also must include full maneuver descriptions with all possible deductions with the submissions.  Deadline for this is again November 15th, 2010.

Rules change proposals are not just for F3A – the F3 sub-committee is also responsible for F3M and F3P.  For those of you not familiar with F3M – it is for large aerobatic models not exceeding 20kg in weight (ala TOC/IMAC models).  F3P is indoor aerobatics with models not to exceed 300g in weight.  F3M was just voted into a regular status starting in 2009 with the potential to host a world championship event for F3M starting in 2011.  The same can be said about F3P.  We’ve seen huge successes over here with F3P so far and the number of contests is growing every year.  Events such as the e-TOC definitely help with interest although it is my understanding that they do not use the F3P schedules.

Since IMAC has no interest in pursuing F3M, it is really up to us to do this and to perhaps influence the rules and schedules somewhat – I can definitely see the benefits of pushing F3M and F3P (perhaps the NSRCA can adopt both categories?) within the USA and to perhaps one day host a World Championships for both F3M and F3P.

The sooner we talk about these potential rules changes, the better.  I can then “socialize” these with my peers on the F3 sub-committee to see what their take is…

-Derek

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