[F3A-Discussion] Modifications toproposedmaneuverexecution guide and to F schedules

Atwood, Mark atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
Wed Jun 30 11:36:26 AKDT 2010 

Agree completely.  Moreover, I would argue that many use S&G and overall presentation over and above the more objective criteria which we strive so hard to perfect.

Regarding 175meters, I always thought it would be interesting to have the 150m - 175m depth objectively enforced with distance judges.  I think we would be unpleasantly surprised.

Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com>  |  www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 3:10 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications toproposedmaneuverexecution guide and to F schedules

Mark,

You are 100% correct that the objective criteria are being evaluated in a subjective manner, and this can be minimized/reduced with training and experience.  I'm certainly not taking the absurd position that S+G and size are not being evaluated, rather I am taking the position that we should not have scoring criteria without any standards or guidance, and the rules should not promote or legitimize arbitrary and subjective scoring by including S+G and Size as scoring criteria.

Size could be reasonably legislated and become more objective (still subjectively judged), and it would be complicated because there would be a million exceptions based on particular maneuver combinations (ie, P11 Fig M and ½ Rev), and I doubt size would be judged anymore accurately than distance - not having seen a WC since 1989, I can only say I've heard flying far beyond 175 meters in recent years is not downgraded per the rule book.

Regards,

Dave



________________________________
From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 2:35 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications toproposedmaneuverexecution guide and to F schedules

All of that being said,

This IS a subjective sport.  Period.  We may have SOME objective criteria, but those are evaluated in a subjective manner. Your opinion on what a 45deg line is, or 15 deg of rotation, etc.   Everything about our sport is subjective with the possible exception of weight and noise rules which are objectively evaluated (arguably).

The idea that the general size and shape of maneuvers throughout the entire flight isn't ALREADY being evaluated is absurd.  Of course it is.  Overall presentation is a big part of what we do.  We roll to the canopy and stall with the top of the plane showing because we feel it looks and scores better.

I'm not thrilled about adding "size" to the written criteria just because it will give some people another arbitrary justification to judge people, rather than the flying, but the reality is it's already in there.



Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com>  |  www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Mark Hunt
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 2:08 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications toproposed maneuverexecution guide and to F schedules

Without a doubt, #2 sucks....we need to get it the hell out of the AMA rulebook too!

________________________________
From: Dave <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:38:25 AM
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications toproposed maneuverexecution guide and to F schedules
Ok.....my "rant"

The proposed judging principles -
1. precision
2. S+G
3. Positioning
4. Size

1 is clear enough, and examples of errors and appropriate downgrades are given.  This is an objective type of criteria, and suitable for a PRECISION event.

2 has never been clearly defined, and examples of errors and downgrades have never been given.  This is a wholly subjective criteria, and suitable for an ARTISTIC event.

3 is clear enough, and examples of errors and appropriate downgrades are given.  This is an objective type of criteria, and suitable for a PRECISION event.

4 is not clearly defined, and examples of errors and downgrades have never been given.  As currently presented in the rules, this is a wholly subjective criteria, and suitable for an ARTISTIC event.

If specific downgrades that are objective and not subjective can not be defined, they should not be in the rulebook.

If F3A is really about precision flying, #2 and #4 should be deleted from the book as they are either 100% subjective, or close to it, and have nothing to do with precision.

If F3A is not really about precision flying, lets add criteria for rhythm, flow, style, originality, "zen" factor, and maybe even spectator appeal?  I hope the intent of S+G and Size is to promote "beautiful" flying in addition to precision flying, but I challenge anyone to fly precise maneuvers with proper positioning without being "beautiful".

With the World Cup ongoing at the present......I think most can agree the game is more appealing when it is "beautiful"......but the winner is determined by the score, which is objective, and not subjective.

Regards,

Dave

________________________________
From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:23 PM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications toproposed maneuverexecution guide and to F schedules

I agree.

I've asked for clarification on how this scoring is applied.  Is it to be done at the end of the sequence like the old noise score?  What is the deduction?  This rule just doesn't make any sense to me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:09:24 AM
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications to proposed        maneuverexecution        guide and to F schedules
Keeping maneuver size relatively the same as the box can't practically happen with the current P11....unless the Figure M is very narrow and short in height....draw it out graphically......by the time you make the Figure M and following ½ reverse Cuban 8 fit in the box, neither come anywhere near close to the top of the box.

Regards,

Dave

________________________________
From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:58 AM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications to proposed maneuverexecution guide and to F schedules

Meaning that the expectation is that the maneuvers should try to be the same size and relative to the box?

Good question - that one will generate a lot of discussion in the F3A community as well.


----- Original Message -----
From: "john fuqua" <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 8:53:00 AM
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications to proposed maneuver execution        guide and to F schedules
Derek
What is with the criteria on size of maneuvers.  That will create a lot of discussion list arguments.

From: f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:27 AM
To: f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: [F3A-Discussion] Modifications to proposed maneuver execution guide and to F schedules

Please review the attached documents and provide feedback if you have any...

The Maneuver Execution Guide was formally the "Judge's Guide"... it has been cleaned up and hopefully enhanced.  Some changes have been made to the proposed F schedules for F13 and F15 - changes are in blue.



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