[F3A-Discussion] Judging Proposal

Sun Mar 11 09:10:16 AKDT 2018

Don,
I understand what you were going for here, and technically it would reduce some cost, but only minimally compared to an overall reduction in the number of judges. Moreover, it seems somewhat disingenuous to ask a group of judges to work hard for four days, and then send them home without being able to see the results of their work or enjoy the banquet at the end. I would much rather see a total reduction in the number of judges and the overall footprint of the contest by shortening its duration. Eliminating the off day and one of the registration days.

On Mar 11, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com<mailto:donramsey at gmail.com>> wrote:

Derek,

Reducing the judges to 10 for semi and finals would eliminate 3 or 4 days of hotels and food for 10 of the judges.  They would be gone for the off day, semi, finals and night of the finals.

From: Derek Koopowitz [mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 1:42 PM
To: Don Ramsey; 'Atwood, Mark'; f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us<mailto:f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Judging Proposal

The majority of the people on the sub-committee don’t want zero judges as they feel they will override the judges and essentially be “the supreme being”.  The French want to use video review so when a maneuver is in question, one can then look at the video.  We’ve all seen how long this takes during football, baseball, etc. so that is a non-starter for me.  The French also question that cost is not an issue since they’ve made money in the last WC and Continental Championship they’ve hosted.  Again, they don’t get it.  Wolfgang suggested using contestants as zero judges but this is problematic at best since there can be bias.

I definitely think 3 zero judges are needed so that there will be a tie-breaker in case 2 judges disagree on a zero.

Don:

I’m not sure how using 4 panels of 5 judges for the prelims and only 10 in the semis and finals will reduce cost?  One will still need to pay for 20 judges (and 1 alternate), and how does one select the 10 judges to use in the finals?

From: Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com<mailto:donramsey at gmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 5:44 AM
To: "atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>>, <f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us<mailto:f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us>>, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: [F3A-Discussion] Judging Proposal

I agee with Mark on most points.  Cost is the focus of the proposal.

  *   Do not reduce the prelims flights or maneuvers for the reasons stated.
  *   Do reduce the judging panels if at all possible. This is the big cost item.  Possibly, if over 80 contestants use 4 panels of 5 judges for the prelims then 10 judges for the Semi and Finals (in the current format that would reduce the judge cost for 10 judges by 3 days and no reduction for a contest with less than 80 contestants).  Specify semi-finals and finals always use at least 2 zero judges for each line. 8 judges is sufficient for element judging the maneuvers because the work load is considerably reduce by the zero judges.  The zero judge is a big deal and needed.  Zero judges would come from the 10 judges for the finals but the semi-finals would use who knows (jury member and reserve judge).
  *   For me, having the judges pay part of their expenses is a non starter.  I believe this would be counterproductive.

From my perspective as a judge:

I don’t consider this a vacation trip.  This is a hard trip for the judges.  Travel the first day, arrive and go to hotel for the night, review the Sporting Code, spend the morning in class for the P pattern, afternoon is for demo flights, go to hotel and rest, review the Sporting Code, start the P pattern the next day, off day for pilots is for class and demo flights for the F, review the Sporting Code, …  This a hard, stress inducing job and is not a vacation no matter how good the accommodations, tours, and food.  I don’t believe many (any) of the judges see it that way.

My view on zero judges.  I have called the finals unkowns for very experienced F3A pilots on more than one occasion and called the elements as they are done.  They have missed zeros and here is why.  The caller does give an overview of the maneuver but the judges thoughts are on many other things.  Here is my thought process as I judge.  I hear the call start.  OK, what am I looking for now, did he do the element, is the model oriented correctly, what is the element to be done, did he do it, was it correct, the upcoming element is what, what should I see for say a snap and three quarters, is the orientation correct, is my count correct for the scoring system, enter the score, get ready for the next call.  Many times as the maneuver starts the calling system is still calling the elements.  Do that for 760 maneuvers.  I make no excuses for the judges, their job is to get a score that reflects the quality of the maneuver. Zero judges reduces their work load enormously.  IMHO, the element judging quality would improve by a multiple.

From: F3A-Discussion [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark via F3A-Discussion
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 10:52 PM
To: Derek Koopowitz; f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us<mailto:f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Judging Proposal

I responded to Derek directly earlier but I’ll share my thoughts.

First, I commend Harry for his efforts, but I think he’s off the mark, both in his goal and his approach.  I do agree that cost is a component of participation.  But entry fees, while substantial, currently aren’t sufficient for a host country to successfully run an event, and lowering them slightly, or even moderately, doesn’t move the needle for a participant.

From my experience, a participant is spending ~$7,500 to attend and participate  at a WC.  The US spends about $5000 per person, but we take a large team with 4 callers (no equipment) which lowers our per person costs.   Of that only $650 is the entry fee.  So lowering that by $50 or $100 doesn’t move the needle.

What’s needed is an overall cost reduction and there are several ways to accomplish that for both the participants AND the hosts.  Namely an overall shortening of the event.  Currently there’s a practice day between P and F, that’s a nice break, but an expensive one.  Also there’s 3 days of registration and formal practice that can be reasonably reduced to 2 days, (would love to see just one).  Every day is hundreds of dollars for every person there.  Food, Lodging, Rental Vans, Vacation time, etc.

I think the more critical issue is providing enough funding for the organizers to run a successful event.  That may even mean RAISING the entry fees which is currently not possible under the current FAI guidelines.

The key to that is reducing the judging pool which is currently a daunting expense for the hosts.

I’m not in favor of shortening P for all the reasons mentioned.  Most ONLY get to fly P and reducing their flying time will only lower their participation.

I AM in favor of reducing the judging pool (and thus eliminating TBL in the prelims)

I AM in favor of zero judges for the finals.  Be they jury members or even available Pilots (Contestant judging???)

I AM in favor of a shorter Finals.  1 F and 2 Unknowns, keep all rounds.  Reduces the judge load, shortens the day (currently VERY long), Reduces the overall judge load.

Things not mentioned…   I’d like to see a term limit on WC judges.  2 or 3 times and you’re done.  Need fresh blood.  Any competitive requirements (while desirable) are difficult to police, but not having the same tired judge for 20 years is something easy to control.

I’m on the fence on asking the Judges to contribute financially to their trip (cover their airfare, or lodging, something).  On the pro side, it both reduces the hosts costs, and provides for a more “vested” judge.  It may only be perception, but there are too many comments from judges about their great accommodations, food, and tours that lead you to believe they see the event as a working vacation.    The Con, is that we would limit those that would make the investment to judge.

Overall I’m against this proposal, but I like the discussion it’s starting.

-Mark
MARK ATWOOD
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e.  atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>

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On Mar 5, 2018, at 7:10 PM, Derek Koopowitz via F3A-Discussion <f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us<mailto:f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Harry Ells from Canada has put together a proposal that will reduce the cost of hosting a WC and also reduce the cost of entry fees.  Below is Harry’s text and questions he has about the proposal.  Please let me know your opinion on this proposal.  I’m not in favor of this at all – this is a drastic change which will impact attendance and quality of the event.

I have spent much time trying to come up with a Judging system that will save a significant cost in the operation of a F3A World Championships.
The goal would be to lower cost in running a World Championships and lower the entry fees.
I have looked at many scenarios that I can not see working. The one attached is the only one that I think will work.
I realize that it may be looked at as very radical, but I hope that you will look at it with an open mind. The proposal has what I feel are the least amount of changes.
Unless there are amendments  I will propose the following 4 Questions.
Item # 1-Are you in favour of the proposal?
Item # 2-Are you in favour of 3 Unknowns in the final?
Item # 3-Are you in favour of 1 F and 2 Unknowns in the final?
Item # 4-Are you in favour of counting all 3 rounds in final?

Regards
Harry

Best regards,
-Derek
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