[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in classselection?-->New twist but no hard feelings, I have thick skin

Ed Miller edbon85 at charter.net
Fri Aug 17 00:15:45 AKDT 2007 

Thankfully this thread may now be put to bed for at least a little while. 
Unfortunately like many online discussions it ended up going in as many 
directions as there were participants.  It even got personal which indicates 
there is a real passion for the sport, both good and bad.  However, once 
again the opportunity to put forth organized, meaningful change has been 
side tracked.

Is it NSRCA's goal to promote pattern ?? I believe so.  Does anyone feel 
pattern "competition" participation has grown or declined in recent years ?? 
Don't take Nats participation as a overall health check on pattern activity. 
If you felt it has declined somewhat, could it be that this sport is just 
that, a sport and maybe, just maybe folks outside looking in don't want, 
don't need or are intimidated by a mandatory "move up" rule, though 
unofficially not enforced, hanging over their heads ??

As the R/C hobby has evolved with many new venues and choices that a R/C 
flyer can participate in, pattern, in order to grow, may need to offer 
venues folks can feel comfortable in as a "destination" for their skills, 
resources and ambition level.  Perhaps in order to grow pattern ( where did 
he go ?? )  the current 401 to 404, 406 stepping stone advancement is 
obsolete. We don't officially enforce it do we ??  Maybe a less structured 
opening of the door to pattern will yield a growth period, with that growth 
will come the next Jason, Chip, etc and most importantly the life long 
pattern enthusiast.

Not everyone can be Jeff Gordon or Jason Shulman. ( I like the comparison as 
neither has facial hair anymore )  Not everyone has the raw talent or wants 
to commit the resources to even try and attain the Jeff Gordon or Jason 
Shulman level.  However, they may want to play at a somewhat lesser level. 
There are plenty of Saturday night "sportsman" racers that spend decades 
racing in the same class.  I've done it myself and was perfectly happy 
competing at the NHRA Super Stock class and had absolutely no visions that 
it was a stepping stone to Top Fuel.  Nor did NHRA or peer pressure require 
me to "move up" when I did very well in the "sportsman" Super Stock class.

God forbid we embrace the reality that there are career Intermediate and/or 
Advanced class fliers out there.  Personally I feel it is a choice to fly 
FAI or Masters as both are at the top of the pyramid so they are both a 
destination.  I am sure everyone on this list knows at least one "career" 
non Masters or FAI pattern junkie.  So what is wrong with that ???  Do you 
joke, break bread, drink beer and socialize with them anyway ?? You sure do. 
They are the great masses of this sport.

Those that have been successful in 402, 403, 404 and 406 have committed a 
great deal of resources to become good in those classes, the well developed 
schedules we have ensure that and the fact the schedules change in a timely 
manner ensures no one gets 100% comfortable with thumb memory and is on auto 
pilot.  As you go up in class new skills and appropriately additional 
resources are required to become successful.  Maybe forcing the herd to 
gather in only one or two locations isn't the best course of action anymore.

My outside the box approach to grow pattern participation in the reality of 
today's world, 401 is the only class one cannot make a career of.
Flying R/C for 45 years, age 50.
Married, 2 sons, drug free for a long long time :).  Still enjoy Jack 
Daniels though.
Pattern enthusiast for approximately 20 years, competing on and off for 
about 12 years.  Kinda side tracked this year unfortunately but I'll be 
back.
Masters flyer ( well that is debatable )
Good story teller and know how to party.
That's my modeling resume and it's stuck on me like super glue.
Fire away, ones and zeros can't hurt me. I am their master.
Ed M.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in 
classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season


> Be elitist
>
> Masters know everything
>
> no one else's opinions are worth a crap
>
> Doesn't matter that I;ve been flying RC 30 years
>
> Doesn't matter that I've been building with balsa since I was 7 and my 
> FIRST
> HOME DESIGNED PLANE flew just fine... when I was 10
>
> I know nothing
>
> I'm "Just a Sportsman"
>
> bye
>
> Cancel my NSRCA membership
>
> I won't be at the nexst contest
>
> I won't be helping at the next local contest (which I have been doing 
> every
> year I have been in the local club.)
>
> I won't support Pattern any more in any way.
>
> And... I'll have my name pulled from this e-mail list before you can
> answer... AND DON'T e-mail "back channel.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
>> Glen didn't write that, George did. George is an intermediate pilot. He 
>> is
>> in no way an elitist, but he is just as offended by the sandbagging
>> comment
>> as everyone else who knows Arch and Glen. It has nothing to do with
>> "political correctness" like Fred tried to say. It has more to do with 
>> how
>> difficult it is to get your point across if you're trying to speak 
>> through
>> a
>> size 11 Nike. (Foot in mouth for those having trouble with that).
>>
>> Matt
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>
>>
>>> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>> >Sportsman's
>>>>comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>>
>>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause
>>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a
>>> person
>>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
>>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his
>>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>>
>>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but
>>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above
>>> does
>>> nothing to help the sport.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>>
>>>
>>>> Glen,
>>>>
>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>> Sportsman's
>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship.  I
>>>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in
>>>> Masters
>>>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>>>
>>>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because
>>>> I
>>>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people
>>>> trying
>>>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the AMA
>>>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a real
>>>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6
>>>> this
>>>> year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against 
>>>> that
>>>> have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go FAI,
>>>> then
>>>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly
>>>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>>>
>>>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the storms 
>>>> headed
>>>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with
>>>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs 
>>>>> and
>>>>> lows
>>>>> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to the
>>>>> NATS
>>>>> and
>>>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking myself is
>>>>> that
>>>>> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would
>>>>> be.
>>>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking 
>>>>> what's
>>>>> good
>>>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>>>
>>>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this
>>>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second is to be as
>>>>> competitive as I can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have
>>>>> fun
>>>>> and
>>>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote
>>>>> their
>>>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?  The 
>>>>> short
>>>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle 
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should have
>>>>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are fortunate to
>>>>> have
>>>>> a
>>>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from 
>>>>> having
>>>>> more
>>>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my vantage
>>>>> point
>>>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
>>>>> influence
>>>>> over the market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>>>>> competitors
>>>>> use
>>>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel there 
>>>>> is
>>>>> an
>>>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar
>>>>> effect.
>>>>> A
>>>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford.
>>>>> Many
>>>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the
>>>>> US
>>>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs 
>>>>> especially
>>>>> at
>>>>> the Masters level.
>>>>>
>>>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to
>>>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger
>>>>> but
>>>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>> Hester
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
>>>>> "flying"
>>>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>>>
>>>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because he said
>>>>> his
>>>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may
>>>>> not
>>>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill,
>>>>> the
>>>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's 
>>>>> certainly
>>>>> capable of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and 
>>>>> whether
>>>>> you
>>>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters
>>>>> pilot.
>>>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and
>>>>> paying
>>>>> his
>>>>>
>>>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a 
>>>>> national
>>>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You
>>>>> can't
>>>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition,
>>>>> not
>>>>> at
>>>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
>>>>> manuevers
>>>>> are different, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100%
>>>>> positive
>>>>>
>>>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a
>>>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots 
>>>>> complaining
>>>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they
>>>>> like
>>>>> them as people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that.
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the
>>>>> same
>>>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier
>>>>> own
>>>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>>>> decision.
>>>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have
>>>>> to
>>>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Well...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class
>>>>> > until
>>>>> > he
>>>>> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won?  Out
>>>>> > of
>>>>> > how
>>>>> > many who have competed?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters 
>>>>> > wants
>>>>> > to
>>>>> > be
>>>>> > the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Reality is not politically correct.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same 
>>>>> > trophy:
>>>>> > "Participant"
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Fred,
>>>>> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> Nats
>>>>> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats
>>>>> >> finish
>>>>> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the
>>>>> >> nation.
>>>>> >> He
>>>>> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal 
>>>>> >> goal
>>>>> >> he
>>>>> >> has
>>>>> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and
>>>>> >> knowing
>>>>> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
>>>>> >> calling
>>>>> >> him
>>>>> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6
>>>>> >> who
>>>>> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a
>>>>> >> regular
>>>>> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in
>>>>> >> Masters
>>>>> >> other
>>>>> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
>>>>> >> Pattern.
>>>>> >> I
>>>>> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we
>>>>> >> should
>>>>> >> not
>>>>> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> move
>>>>> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>>>> >> turnaround
>>>>> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>>>> >> maneuvers
>>>>> >> that,
>>>>> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>>>>> >> consider
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> be
>>>>> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Matt
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
>>>>> >> selection?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't ever
>>>>> >>> expect
>>>>> >>> to
>>>>> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from Sportsman.
>>>>> >>> The
>>>>> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
>>>>> >>> others
>>>>> >>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to 
>>>>> >>> be
>>>>> >>> around
>>>>> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
>>>>> >>> learned
>>>>> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place
>>>>> >>> DEAD
>>>>> >>> LAST
>>>>> >>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
>>>>> >>> competitive
>>>>> >>> if
>>>>> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so
>>>>> >>> they
>>>>> >>> can
>>>>> >>> always win...
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with 
>>>>> >>> the
>>>>> >>> point
>>>>> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>>>>> >>> bothering
>>>>> >>> to
>>>>> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
>>>>> >>> others
>>>>> >>> flying.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>>>>> >>> personal
>>>>> >>> agendas.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>> >>> selection?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>I know Glen.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really
>>>>> >>>> just
>>>>> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a
>>>>> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping 
>>>>> >>>> stone
>>>>> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
>>>>> >>>> itself
>>>>> >>>> (which it currently is).
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot who 
>>>>> >>>> does
>>>>> >>>> not
>>>>> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally
>>>>> >>>> like
>>>>> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
>>>>> >>>> Masters
>>>>> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to 
>>>>> >>>> achieve
>>>>> >>>> an
>>>>> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the
>>>>> >>>> option
>>>>> >>>> of
>>>>> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for
>>>>> >>>> example only.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give me a
>>>>> >>>> big
>>>>> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually
>>>>> >>>> about
>>>>> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and 
>>>>> >>>> if
>>>>> >>>> you
>>>>> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it
>>>>> >>>> better
>>>>> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play
>>>>> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st
>>>>> >>>> time.
>>>>> >>>> (just ask my wife)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> -Doug
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>> >>>> selection?
>>>>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the
>>>>> >>>>> Masters
>>>>> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI
>>>>> >>>>> class at any
>>>>> >>>>> contest but not both.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> ~Glen
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>>>> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>> >>>>> selection?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet
>>>>> >>>>> again)
>>>>> >>>> is:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> -Doug
>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> -- 
>>>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date:
>>>>> >>>> 8/14/2007
>>>>> >>>> 5:19 PM
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -- 
>>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> >> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date:
>>>>> >> 8/14/2007
>>>>> >> 5:19 PM
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/957 - Release Date: 8/16/2007
>> 1:46 PM
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

More information about the NSRCA-discussion mailing list