[NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI

Wed Oct 17 07:24:14 AKDT 2007

Right on Lance: I feel somewhat inadequate judging sequences I haven’t
flown, especially the more complex maneuvers in masters and FAI schedules.
Knowing what the maneuver elements are is a much bigger problem than
downgrading element deficiencies.
Jim Hiller

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Lance Van
Nostrand
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 8:14 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI

Your question on Masters pilots judging FAI....
I'll answer including FAI judging Masters.
Let me say in general that every year there are a few instances where the
judge just doesn't know the sequence and its obvious in the scores.  Missing
the wrong manuver is an obvious issue but beyond that, a judge can't fully
appreciate the spacing, know the pinch points, etc without having flown the
sequence enough to appreciate its nuances.  This might be a real problem for
the next FAI F but Masters and the P are flyable equally.
--Lance
----- Original Message -----
From: Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI

In attempting to understand “how” the FAI scoring is delivered, I have made
more rationalizations, hypothesis, or excuses for judges than anyone can
imagine – which range from:
1.   Maybe I suck :-)
2.   Intentional bias
3.   Unintentional bias
4.   Ignorance of rules
5.   “Impression” judging
What I am finally left to guess is that a hybrid method of judging is used
by some FAI judges.  Pure speculation (beware):  When a pilot begins
disrupting a maneuver by 20 + degrees of error, the judging standards are
easily applied without too much difficulty.
However – when more than one “outstanding” flight is being witnessed, some
judges may confuse their roll from “applying-downgrades”, to that of
“determining a winner.”  Determining winner is not what judges do.
Normalization does that.  In the instance of intensely good flying, the
judges may be saying to themselves, “
.  This maneuver is teetering on an 8
or 9, but I just watched person X fly and I know person X is better than
person Y, so I need to score this an 8.”  Of course, this is not accountable
to our judging standards of code of ethics.
Again – this is just a WAG.  I have made more attempts to understand,
appreciate, support, and preserve the integrity of our institution as anyone
possible could.  At this point I need the Masters pilots to speak to how
they judge FAI.  How do Masters pilots apply the 15 degree rule for
instance???  I cannot really speak to what goes on in the FAI judges mind,
but would like to know so that I can meet their standard as a new FAI judge.
Thanks,
Jim

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
schroetere at bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:59 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI
Sounds like a good idea, Vince. We have at least a couple of east facing
fields that we have to wait for the sun to vacate the box.
I agree with Gary. Usually I see my scores and I think it's more than I
would have given myself. Judging is, to me, usually a tough thing to do and
be correct. Things happen so quickly.
I absolutely agree with Jim that we all, as judges, need to be as fair as
possible, regardless of the pilot flying. I'm not sure that I understand
what you are saying with these statements...
7. Normalization does its part to compare flyers, judges should not use RAW
scores as the primary “real-time” comparative force while in the process of
judging.  RAW scores should be independent of anyone entered in the contest
or other factors.
and 1. It is not the responsibility of a judge to use “real-time” RAW score
evaluations from maneuver to maneuver (against previous or future flights)
to ensure an “order” is reached, or room is left at the top (
. If this is
happening
.)
I too want to leave a contest with a good feeling. This weekend as an
example, I felt pretty good about finishing third. I flew fairly well, but
not near as good as Joe and John. Anyway, please clarify what you are saying
in the above statements. I'm not trying to be a smart &**, I just want to
make sure I understand what you are saying.
Thanks,
Emory
-------------- Original message from vicenterc at comcast.net: --------------
I think there is one possible solution: just more judging clinics and
training.  In the last contest at central Kansas,  one good friend and
experience pilot suggested that we should have judging clinics when we are
waiting for the sun get out of the way.  In our area, we usually wait until
11:00 AM to start the contest.  We know that pattern flyers are usually
early birds.  We could have judging clinics between 9-10:30 AM both days.
This is 3 hours of training in one weekend.  I know that this is not
necessarily the case for other districts or fields or when the contest is
very well attended.  I will say that this clinics are very easy to implement
when we have less than ~20 pilots registered.  However, if there are more
than 20 pilots just loosing a round to accommodate the judging clinic won't
be a big problem.
Regards,
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Courtney, Gary Ray" <grcourtney at tva.gov>

  _____

From: Courtney, Gary Ray
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:07 AM
To: 'schroetere'
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI
yes!
All I can hope for is to please my hardest critic and judge (myself) because
he truly knows what's being done in the air...That's why I very rarely look
at the score sheets and standings they are always 4 or 5 points higher than
I would give myself. It's like x-mas every contest.
The ? mark was referring to the fact that I don't have a solution, Judging
is not ever 100% perfect(human factor) it is what it is accept it or pull
your hair out over it.
Having judged FAI on rare occasions, I can say it's not very enjoyable
because the pressure I put on myself to try to be fair and consistent is
considerable. just to many elements for my feeble brain to process...
Gary
  _____

From: schroetere [mailto:schroetere at bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 6:33 AM
To: Courtney, Gary Ray
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI
I don't know, Jim started it and I just want to see where it goes. Did you
read his email below?
----- Original Message -----
From: Courtney, Gary Ray <mailto:grcourtney at tva.gov>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI
?
gary
  _____

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of schroetere
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:20 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Cc: Jim Woodward
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 FAI
 Hey Jim,
I debated with myself to respond to you or the list. But, since you brought
this up here, I'd like to hear some more from you and others as well.
I know that you are not alone in your frustration. We talked about this
mid-season at length. I'm just not sure what can be done to "fix" judging
differences. When it comes down to it, we are all human. Until we get some
sort of camera hooked up to a computer, we will never have perfect judging.
Even then, I'm sure someone will complain that the software algorithm that
calculates the score isn't correct. All we as judges can do is sit down in
the chair and do our best. Some times we get it right and some times we
don't. It will never be better than that (my opinion).
I hate to see that you are feeling so beaten down that you feel a class
switch is the only way to fix it. I have no doubt that you will have great
success in Masters if that is what you choose. To me, all the guys flying
FAI in our district should be there. You are all fantastic pilots.
So, what needs to be fixed in your opinion and how should this be done?
Thanks, Emory
----- Original Message -----
From: Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Cc: McLaughlin, Ryan (FRS.JAX) <mailto:ryan_mclaughlin at ml.com>  ; NSRCA
District III <mailto:dist3 at nsrca.org>  ; Joseph Walker
<mailto:JWalker at ponikvar.com>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship
It is my opinion that abject failure to score FAI rounds and standings
accurately has been consistently occurring in District 3, punctuated by the
final two contests of 2007 (JAX and D3 Champs).  Recognizing these
inequities in FAI, I look forward to joining the Masters class for the 2008
season beginning with the Tangerine.
Copied from www.dictionary.com <http://www.dictionary.com/>    Abject:
–adjective
1.
utterly hopeless, miserable, humiliating, or wretched: abject poverty.

2.
contemptible; despicable; base-spirited: an abject coward.

3.
shamelessly servile; slavish.

4.
Obsolete. cast aside.
Thank You,
Jim W.
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