[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Matthew Finley rcfin02 at msn.com
Fri Jan 4 05:46:38 AKST 2019


One thing I believe we have to keep in mind is that most of what we are discussing only pertains to someone wishing to compete in the NATS.... If John Doe wants to go to a district meet next weekend with his brand new 120 size Skybolt that weighs 10.5 pounds, and is 2 meters, he can do so. John Doe has a friend that has a brand new 160 size P-51 that is a little over 2 meters, and weighs 15 pounds that wants to fly in Advanced, he can do so. It is the call of the meets CD to decide if they choose to place a size limit, or power limit for their particular meet. As long as the aircraft is AMA legal, and the CD approves you can fly what you wish at a meet. Now.... I for one would not fly my patternship with a 30-40% Extra or Etc in the air with me, or a Jet, however unless the CD states otherwise that can happen without issue. Yes, you would have some pilots upset, and maybe a few people would pack up and leave, but that is their choice. There is a common sense factor in this.....

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________________________________
From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2019 9:31:13 AM
To: 'Robert L. Beaubien'; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Thanks Robert,
The point of the rules changes is that there are already substantial roadblocks to newcomers and that is explained in the proposal.  your claim is that it causes roadblocks for those coming back.  Instead of buying a used 2 meter plane you could buy a new smaller plane, so it's not a money issue. As others have stated and know, the smaller planes fly very well.  Not a compelling argument.
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert L. Beaubien via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 4:27 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

I do not like the proposed rule.  I'm looking to get back to competitive flying this year and will likely use my 2m Focus II.  This rule would also prevent using "hand me downs" from pilots in upper classes.  I think adding any road blocks to participation would not be good.  I have no problem with a sliding bonus scale based on model size and have no issues letting Sportsman and even Intermediate pilots use whatever plane they want.

- Robert Beaubien
- Drone Plastics

“What do you call a firm of lawyers buried up to their necks in concrete?   A failure to estimate the proper amount of concrete.”

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf Of Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:42 AM
To: 'Curt Oberg' <obergc at cox.net>; 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Read the proposal.  there is a grandfather clause to address the current flyers.  Another point is that practically no one owns just 1 plane,  it would be ok to buy a smaller pattern plane.

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:08 AM
To: 'Bob Kane' <getterflash at yahoo.com>; 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table.  I fear that Mr. Kane may be right in the long run, sadly.  I'm afraid that this rule change may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready to jump to Advanced.
Curt Oberg

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to stop the decline.  We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO.  It is impacting every facet of the hobby.   Brick and mortar hobby shops are all but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane sales. Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc.  There is not enough new blood getting into the sport.  All this at a time when it has never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air. The signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?

I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave.

Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
 To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>, "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM

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 #yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here  with considerable interest.  The decline in pattern has  been steady and substantial.  There are a number of  indicators for this.  I have submitted a rule proposal to  encourage participation in this event.  I would strongly  encourage you all to contact your contest board member to  pass this rule change proposal.  you can type AMA rules  change proposals and read for yourselves.  I recommend you  do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have  talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete  if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal  on that.  everything I have read here supports the spirit  and intent of the proposal.  It would be a very healthy
 rules change for the event.  Mike   From: NSRCA-discussion
 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On  Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
 Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
 PM
 To: General pattern discussion
 <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
 for a pattern plane...  Bill- Have at it. If it helps  promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with  those tree landings 😉Hank- my first pattern  contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox  .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do  with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2  ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a  Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme  too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack  of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started  to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results.
 True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern  plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year  before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the
 1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings  cause he did that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew  what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin.
 I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups  in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I  was out flying my planes.I flew with a 5UAP Futaba  radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my  first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels  for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no  mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many  non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam  Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small  Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick  .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the  moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in  their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was  all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case,  but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to
 keep things fair and fun.   Two things I had trouble with
 coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a  flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10  scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see  the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m  not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and  consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies  what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet),  or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the  opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any  end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot  is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the  hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores  given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on  your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved  to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice.
 As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we  judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely  would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each  other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I  think that also made us better pilots, especially in those  rounds lol.
  Sorry for
 the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to  go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it  to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for  testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our  newest Jr member Kal.
 JasonJas iP
 On Dec 31,
 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:Hi
  Yep, I
 agree.  Back in the late 70's I flew "A"
 pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre  60.  Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really  well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less  than 3 pieces.
  I have been
 lurking on this list and have been a member for several  years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern.
 Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call  Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or  cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers  have.
  I thank all of
 you who took the time to respond.  My comment is really  that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest  again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any  interest in competition, to start.  Once they have  participated in a few contests and met the other guys I  believe it could take off.  In my area there are no pattern  flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers.  I believe  there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I  am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am  a member).  This covers well over a thousand  flyers.
  But
 thanks again for the good conversation.  A lot more  interesting than flying down wind😒
  HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
 on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
 PM
 To: John Ford; General pattern
 discussion
 Subject: Re:
 [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
  Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John.
 The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of  pattern flying.
  I have seen almost no
 "elitists" in pattern.  In fact, I can not think  of even one, right now, thinking back...  Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific  Leader Member  SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC  Emeritus  Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865)  604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10  PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote: Hank,
 You make some
 good points, but I have to jump in on this  one. In  the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively"
 at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the  previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many  venues. Over that 30-year period,  contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed  many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport  plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear  and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with  donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to  allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even  seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's  plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to  fly.
  Yes, we
 have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who  looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at  the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've  never personally come across a generally-present  "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the  sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane  choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be  financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and  greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time  and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always  a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have
 personally seen.   There is always someone on
 email lists such as this one (and others) that will play  armchair expert and start describing what plane is required  for this class and that class. It's not good  information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been  about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to  practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you  examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same  armchair experts, you'll usually find that they  haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions  exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn  10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a  smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several  times. So has everyone else who goes to  contests.
  As long
 as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good
 enough..just practice! You are in the hunt!  JohnNSRCA 1673          On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
 PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote: Hi
 Guys
  Thanks for
 addressing this issue.  If we are truly down to 400  members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new  blood is pivotal.
  I'm at
 work so I can't write all I want but I would like to  dial expectations down a little  more.
  I wanted to
 get started in pattern a few years back.  I bought an ARF  pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS).  I also  bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140.  Life got in the way so  I never finished them.  I gave the smaller one to my son  and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the  airplane sits in my shop.
  If I am lucky
 I will convert both to electric and get started.  (I've  been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly  just for sport and socializing).
  Today you can
 get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap  so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for  anyone that thinks they may be interested in  pattern.
  Why can't
 a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and  enter a couple of contests?  If they like it they will  invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive  equipment.  My concern is that if someone showed up at a  contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed  off the field.
  When I started
 playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.
 I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy  box.  When I got better I built my own clubs via  Golfsmith.  Now I have a nice set of Pings.  Still play  badly but look good getting out of the car 😉
  Do any of you
 think I am on a useful track?
  Hank From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
 on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Sent:
 Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
 To: Curt
 Oberg; General pattern discussion
 Subject:
 Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..
  Good perspective, an even
 better goal, and an excellent wife!!  You’ve got it made  Curt!!
 (See you in Andersonville!)

 Sent from my iPhone

 > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
 PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:
 >
 > When I
 started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting  from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very  competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit,
 $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6  radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for  retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing  materials, etc.  Of course you then had to build the plane  first (which is probably becoming a lost art).  Relatively  speaking, considering inflation and the differential between  salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF  pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in  a percentage of your disposable income.  It helps immensely  when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the  best equipment out there for my planes.  Every time I  hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me  that if I don't spend the money, my son will when  I'm gone.  My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go  down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the  trees.
 >
 > Curt
 Oberg
 >
 >
 -----Original Message-----
 > From:
 NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
 On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion  > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM

 > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for  a pattern plane...
 >
 > There’s always been talk about how
 expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are  expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much  they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line  $$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for  my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best  planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good  as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was  about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more  average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me  to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best  equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at  every turn.
 >
 >
 Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville,
 AR:
 > Plane: AJ Acuity $949
 > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
 > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
 > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220
 > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s
 & 175 $950 now 🤭
 > Receiver:
 Futaba 7006 $100 now
 > Falcon Spinner
 and Prop: $160
 > Total works out to
 about: $2939
 >
 >
 Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel  assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed  the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro  strap for the battery.
 >
 > I could have used, and not hurt my
 performance any, this equipment:
 >
 Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520

 > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved
 -$6
 > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
 -$155
 > Gator spinner ($18) and saved
 -$42
 > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
 > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved
 $34
 > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
 ($20) +$20
 > Total saved: $658
 >
 > So my Acuity set-up
 could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you  have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane.
 >
 > Now my Epic set-up
 from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point:

 > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I
 think Epic + was less)
 > Brenner Contra:
 $1000 last year
 > Kontronic Motor: $500

 > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
 > Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner
 > Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower
 batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity.

 >
 > I usually use
 2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU  links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
 >
 > Total around $6000
 >

 > Again, using equipment that’s not
 ‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the  difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra  for a Himax set-up.
 >
 > And the Yang/Oxai you can add another
 $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up.
 >
 > All this being said,
 the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are:
 > Any sport/pattern capable plane they are  comfortable flying.
 > Any second hand
 pattern plane they can afford.
 > A good
 friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁
 >
 > Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and  always land wheels down 😉
 >
 > Jason
 > Jas iP
 >
 _______________________________________________
 > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
 > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 >
 >
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