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<DIV>John,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your response...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me make sure that everyone understands...,"I'm not attacking the
judging in any way". This was only intended to spark discussion about the
scoring and how it roles up. I thought I understood it correctly. I may have
sparked some nerves which was not my intent...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, I'll engage in debate...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>***Each round is normalized to the high raw score in each
class. That makes each round a "mini-contest".***</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This would only be true if the number of rounds won
was the deciding factor. Since the sum of the normalized rounds determines the
winner, it is possible that the winner actually has a lower raw score total. As
Matt stated, it's not probable that this would be the case. However, as the
difference between two scores decrease, the potential becomes
more likely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>***The most harsh set of judges have no more
influence on the outcome than a more lenient set.***</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This can't be a correct statement if my theory and
math is correct. The importance of consistency from judge to judge should be the
priority in my opinion. I believe this is the focus of the NSRCA judging
committee.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>***We admit the judging process is flawed when we use two
or more judges.***</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Actually, I think the "low average round" phenomena risk
is reduced when using more than one judge per round. The averages should reduce
the variance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Larry</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:johnferrell@earthlink.net">John Ferrell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 09, 2003 8:06 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scoring Vs Judging</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Some comments in CAPS embedded in your
post...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Each round is normalized to the high raw score in each
class. That makes each round a "mini-contest".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The most harsh set of judges have no more influence
on the outcome than a more lenient set.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>We admit the judging process is flawed when we use two
or more judges. After all, if they were all perfect we would only need one per
flight!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>We are always looking to do better in the judging &
scoring department.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>John Ferrell <BR>6241 Phillippi Rd<BR>Julian NC 27283<BR>Phone:
(336)685-9606 <BR><A
href="mailto:johnferrell@earthlink.net">johnferrell@earthlink.net</A><BR>Dixie
Competition Products<BR>NSRCA 479 AMA 4190 W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is
Not My Enemy"<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:jed241@msn.com">jed241@msn.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">NSRCA</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 09, 2003 8:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Scoring Vs Judging</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You need to blame this e-mail thread on two things. One is the post
that said it was quite; and two, you will soon see I have too much time on
my hands...<VBG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Before reading any further, I'm only trying to drum up trouble
<VBG> I could be way off base here....I really don't know...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Due to my competitive nature (certainly not my flying ability) I have
given thought to the relationship of judging, scoring, and the potential
outcome of a certain phenomena called a low average round (aka...a
typically low scoring set of judges by nature)...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I could be wrong on this so please correct me if I'm wrong...Here we
go...I'm putting on my flame suit as I type...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Theory:</DIV>
<DIV>Since the scoring procedure is to normalize each round, a set of
judges that scores low by nature will have more influence on the outcome
than a set of judges that scores higher by nature.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Data:</DIV>
<DIV>I pulled a spreadsheet together and came up with the following numbers
(rounded to the nearest .01):</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sportsman - Total KFactor points per round is 19. This translates a
perfect round that each raw score is worth 5.26 normalized points per raw
point (19*10*5.26). A round with an average of 7.5 KFactor points has a
normalized value of 7.0 normalized points per raw point.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If this is true (not claiming it is, cause I don't know) and
two pilots are close (separated only by 1 raw point per round). It's
possible that the pilot winning the lower averaged round could win even
though they share the same exact raw score. This wouldn't be the case if
they scoring system normalized the combined raw scores for all rounds to
determine the winner. This may be the case but I'm just trying to start
trouble...<VBG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>YES!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Average for rounds one and two per KFactor point is 8; Rounds
three and four is 7. Who should win?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Raw Scores:</DIV>
<DIV>Pilot One (R1-152; R2-152; R3-132; R4-132) = total of 568</DIV>
<DIV>Pilot Two (R1-151; R2-151; R3-133; R4-133) = total of
568</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Should this be a tie?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nope, cause when you normalize by the round and add individual rounds
together you get the following results. (assuming the formula is -->1000
/ Highest raw score for the round X pilots raw score for the
round)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Normalized:</DIV>
<DIV>Pilot One (R1-1000; R2-1000; R3-992.5; R4-992.5) = total of
3985</DIV>
<DIV>Pilot Two (R1-993.5; R2-993.5; R3-1000; R4-1000) = total of
3987</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Pilot two wins due to the influence of the lower average scoring
rounds.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't know how the scoring system works to compute the winner, but
would be interested to know if it is by the sum of the normalized rounds or
by normalized total of the raw scores per round.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>NORMALIZED TOTAL OF THE RAW SCORES PER
ROUND</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>If you really want to complicate things, just start thinking about the
shift of the outcome on Masters Maneuvers with high KFactors when the
difference between two pilots is only separated by 1/2 point on a given
maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>TRUE!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Conclusion:</DIV>
<DIV>Consistency of scoring from judge to judge is just as
important as judging each pilot in a round. Unless again the total raw
score is normalized to define the winner.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Now as my favorite comedian always says, "This is only my opinion, I
could be wrong". I also admit that I may not know what I'm talking about
cause I don't understand the math behind it. Not meant to be sarcastic,
cause it could be true.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you actually got to this point, you are truly as demented as I
am...LOL</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Larry</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>