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<DIV>After this past week of seeing all these post spin off of the one I
started, I think I'm going to think twice about instigating a
debate...<VBG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I went back and read my initial post and it said twice that my whole intent
was to start trouble...Never knowing how successful I might be...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The next time I see an e-mail that says it's too quite...I may sit back and
let it be quite, but then again...I've been entertained all week
long...<VBG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In all seriousness, I too am a newbie and have read most of the post. It is
very interesting to see all the various opinions and debate, yet have so much
fun at a contest...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On my way to Muncie in the morning...Hope to meet some new faces...If your
judging Sportsman, bring a hard hat. Tom might be passing the hat for having
maneuvers named after him. Still haven't thought of the politically correct
Double-I variation I performed in Dayton. I think they gave me 7's for
creativity...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tom W. I look forward to meeting you...Only took three years to get me
started...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Larry</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E Fowler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 12, 2003 1:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Contestant Judging was
Calling Maneuvers for Judges</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Allan</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>Sounds good, does that work? The fact that the locals
will sit thru two days of judging is amazing. Have you actually had people
start flying because they judged? I would never advocate excluding a local
with interest, but I think their skill level is best suited for Sportsman and
perhaps Intermediate simply because the judge load is so much lower. I fly
Advanced and I do not have it totally memorized. Think about someone who does
not fly pattern at all....one time you see a stall turn without a half roll,
next time with a half roll, then a bunt with a half roll and a double immalmen
with a full roll-sure looks the same and can get confusing. Do the locals
really take the time needed to become a good judge? We as flyers constantly
discuss such judging while sitting around not flying -to the point of
overkill, but we learn it if nothing but from maximum exposure.
</FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>If I had a local that showed interest
I think I would make him fly Sportsman instead of judging. Ron Barr had 9
Sportsman last weekend.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Gray Fowler<BR>Principal Chemical
Engineer<BR>Composites Engineering</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
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<TD>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>AWorrest@aol.com</B></FONT>
<BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Sent by:
discussion-request@nsrca.org</FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>06/12/2003 12:42 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond to discussion</FONT> <BR></P>
<TD><FONT face=Arial size=1> </FONT><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1> To:
discussion@nsrca.org</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1> cc:
</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>
Subject: Contestant Judging was
Calling Maneuvers for Judges</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Gray and all, <BR><BR>I am going to play Devil's advocate.
If the sole purpose of a pattern contest is for the benefit of the
flyers, then contestant judging is the way to go. But as a former CD,
let me assure you there are more reasons than this one for holding a pattern
contest. As important it is to provide a fair venue for the contestants,
a contest can also serve as a way to get new blood into the sport.
<BR><BR>Using contestant judging exclusively closes one door for introducing
new people into pattern. If we exclude non-pattern fliers from
participation, pattern will wither and die. I was introduced into
pattern first as a scribe, then as a judge. After judging a few
contests, I decided I could fly as well as some of those who were flying and
entered my first contest. <BR><BR>As a CD I believed it was important to
involve non-pattern fliers in a pattern contest. I even strong-armed
some reluctant club members into judging. Good judging is the goal so
training is essential. People should not be asked to judge classes
beyond their ability. A good mix of contestant and non-contestant judges
is necessary to keep the sport healthy. <BR><BR>Allan Worrest <BR><BR>In a
message dated 6/12/2003 11:29:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
gfowler@raytheon.com writes: <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#505050
size=2><BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#505050 size=2>Tony</FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#505050 size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#505050
size=2><BR>I was the one flying when this happened. When I heard the judge say
" isn't he supposed to be inverted" both myself and my caller Lance said "no"
in unison. During the flight I think two more judge "questions" arose where
upon I almost missed a downwind centered maneuver because my caller was again
straightening out judge confusion. Frankly I felt like landing. I really do
not know how this could have been fixed after the fact unless I re-flew the
entire pattern. Considering that I am a very bad Advanced guy I am no
where near winning anything so it did not matter. To alleviate this
problem on the next rounds both myself and Lance started calling out the
entire maneuver loud enough for the judges to know that there is both a
stall turn with and without half rolls and when I was supposed to be inverted.
<BR>These judges were club guys who got the intense training session prior to
the contest. They were trying their best to do it right, and were just
confused-no reason to get mad. What I think this underscores the most is that
we as Pattern dudes are by far the most qualified to judge ourselves, yet no
one wants to judge- or it appears no one wants to judge at the contests, yet
we are willing to let the local sport flyers give us all 8 ,9 and 10's no
matter how bad it is, not know when to zero, look down during the maneuver,
etc. <BR>Here's a vote for contestant judging! ....</FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=#505050 size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#505050
size=2><BR>Gray Fowler <BR>Principal Chemical Engineer <BR>Composites
Engineering</FONT> <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>