<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2730.1700" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You wouldn't believe the lengths ( read $$ and time
) I went to to shave mere grams from my EMC. The ES pipe I have weighs
exactly 3 oz. I'm all for the durability and cost reduction of an aluminum
pipe over unobtainium, but that ounce plus is sure hard to find
elsewhere. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed M.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Rcmaster199@aol.com
href="mailto:Rcmaster199@aol.com">Rcmaster199@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:35
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: ES Composite Pipe
Repair</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Maybe it's me but I just don't get this apparent love
affair <BR>with the carbon pipes. Epoxy as the binder, as Gray states, is
marginal in almost all 4 stroke cases I have heard about. And to make these
things super light, you have got to make then thin, so strength is doubly
compromised, especially on four strokes with their 500+ degree stack
temp.<BR><BR>A hi temp plastic binder such as a PTFE emulsion, or maybe
polyimide emulsion is a better alternative but then the cost would be 2x and
impractical. And ceramics, aka Space Shuttle heat shield tiles, are out
of this world (sorry Gray, I couldn't resist)<BR><BR>How much weight is
actually saved over a "lightweight"ally pipe anyway? The Greves is a little
over 4 ounces, the Macs 20 cc is a little over 5 ounces and the Hatori is a
little over 6. Are we talking, what, 4 ounces tops?? Isn't there someplace
else one could remove 2 to 4 ounces?<BR><BR>Hey, I am a big proponent of
progress and composites offer great advantages in the correct places, but I
have to question if this is one of these places<BR><BR>Firesuit..... hell
forget the firesuit> I'm thick skinned enough, literaly, so fire
away<BR><BR>matt K<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">Subj:<B>Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair </B><BR>Date:9/23/2003
6:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>From:<A
href="mailto:edbon85@optonline.net">edbon85@optonline.net</A><BR>Reply-to:<A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR>To:<A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><I>Sent from
the Internet </I><BR><BR><BR><BR>Gray, I'm listening. A short lived $200
plus pipe is not affordable either. Short of going back to aluminum and the
weight penalty, do we have another alternative ??</FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Ed M.</FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">----- Original Message ----- <BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E Fowler</A> <BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A>
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:40 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair<BR><BR><BR><BR>Concerning this repair, there
is not a commercially available adhesive that is going to do the job long
term. The adhesive I used on Wayne's pipe is an aerospace grade epoxy
called Hysol 9394, rated at 350F. AT 350F this epoxy exhibits about 25% of
its room temperature strength-and this is about the best room temperature
curing high temp epoxy available-in short all the stuff such as JB
weld is crap at the temperatures we are talking about. The inlet temp of
our mufflers makes for a brutal environment and unfortunately anything
that cures at room temperature just is not going to do the job very well.
In reality Hysol 9394 is borderline. No easy answer here, and is evident
by the constant postings about burned out inlets....there is a problem
with the composite mufflers. Actually there is an answer, but I do
not think our pattern market can afford it. </FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>