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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree here, that over
time the weight savings are not very much. The carbon pipes absorb a lot of the
oil, so I’ve found very little, if any, weight savings. I’ve
started going back to the aluminum <span class=GramE>pipes<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>--</span><span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>last longer and cost less.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 23, 2003
4:36 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> discussion@nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: ES Composite Pipe
Repair</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Maybe it's me but I just don't get
this apparent love affair <br>
with the carbon pipes. Epoxy as the binder, as Gray states, is marginal in
almost all 4 stroke cases I have heard about. And to make these things super
light, you have got to make then thin, so strength is doubly compromised,
especially on four strokes with their 500+ degree stack temp.<br>
<br>
A hi temp plastic binder such as a PTFE emulsion, or maybe polyimide emulsion
is a better alternative but then the cost would be 2x and impractical.
And ceramics, aka Space Shuttle heat shield tiles, are out of this world (sorry
Gray, I couldn't resist)<br>
<br>
How much weight is actually saved over a "lightweight"ally pipe
anyway? The Greves is a little over 4 ounces, the Macs 20 cc is a little over 5
ounces and the Hatori is a little over 6. Are we talking, what, 4 ounces tops??
Isn't there someplace else one could remove 2 to 4 ounces?<br>
<br>
Hey, I am a big proponent of progress and composites offer great advantages in
the correct places, but I have to question if this is one of these places<br>
<br>
Firesuit..... hell forget the firesuit> I'm thick skinned enough, literaly,
so fire away<br>
<br>
matt K<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Subj:<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair </span></b><br>
Date:9/23/2003 6:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time<br>
From:<a href="mailto:edbon85@optonline.net">edbon85@optonline.net</a><br>
Reply-to:<a href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a><br>
To:<a href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a><br>
<i><span style='font-style:italic'>Sent from the Internet </span></i><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gray, I'm listening. A short lived $200 plus pipe is not affordable either.
Short of going back to aluminum and the weight penalty, do we have another
alternative ??</span></font><font color=black face=Arial FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:black;background:white'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;background:white'>Ed M.</span></font><font
color=black face=Arial FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span style='font-family:Arial;
color:black;background:white'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;background:white'><br
style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
background:white'>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E Fowler</a> <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a> <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 23, 2003
5:40 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: ES Composite Pipe
Repair<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Concerning this repair, there is not a commercially available adhesive that is
going to do the job long term. The adhesive I used on Wayne's pipe is an
aerospace grade epoxy called Hysol 9394, rated at 350F. AT 350F this epoxy
exhibits about 25% of its room temperature strength-and this is about the best
room temperature curing high temp epoxy available-in short all the stuff
such as JB weld is crap at the temperatures we are talking about. The inlet
temp of our mufflers makes for a brutal environment and unfortunately anything
that cures at room temperature just is not going to do the job very well. In
reality Hysol 9394 is borderline. No easy answer here, and is evident by the
constant postings about burned out inlets....there is a problem with the
composite mufflers. Actually there is an answer, but I do not think our
pattern market can afford it. </span></font><font color=black face=Arial
FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span style='font-family:Arial;color:black;background:white'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<![endif]></span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial FAMILY=SANSSERIF><span
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