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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Larry:<BR><BR>I would agree that in virtually all of the
contests I attend, the correct "winners" were picked by the judges.
However, I think we all agree that each one of US can work harder to be better
judges, just like we can work to be better pilots.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony Stillman<BR>Radio South<BR>3702 N. Pace Blvd.<BR>Pensacola, FL
32505<BR>1-800-962-7802<BR><A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com">www.radiosouthrc.com</A></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jed241@msn.com href="mailto:jed241@msn.com">Larry Diamond</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:15
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judging Landing &
takoffs. (was Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV>I started a thread about judging and the scoring system earlier this
year. After about 300 to 400 e-mails later I paused and went to contest after
contest (7 total) in Sportsman. I was skeptical about the system.
However...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Facts:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1) 7 contest attended</DIV>
<DIV>2) 5 In-District contests (Including the D4 Championship )</DIV>
<DIV>3) 5 different states (MO, IN, TN, MI, and OH)</DIV>
<DIV>4) 3 different NSRCA Districts (3, 4, and 5)</DIV>
<DIV>5) Placed 1-1st, 2-2nd, 2-3rd, and 2-4th</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Original concern: How accurate was the judging to select the best pilot
in the proper final standings.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Worst Case Scenario - St Lois: Used club members to judge
Sportsman.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Initial concern after 1st Round: I was clearly not the best pilot, but
only 2 points behind the leader after the 1st round. Another gentleman was
clearly flying better but scored lower. Allot of discussion about where we
thought we should be among the 4 Sportsman pilots through out the contest.
Very open discussions indeed without debate.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Outcome: Final scoring of the St Lois Contest placed us exactly as we
openly discussed we should be among the 4 pilots competing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Conclusion: The system works.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All the other contest IMHO placed me where I thought I should be. I
also watched the other classes and for the most part held true.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The only gotcha's were the contest decided by less than 10 points. Yep,
allot more than I would have expected. But their flying was actually that
close in the various classes.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Food for thought,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Larry</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:EHaury@aol.com">EHaury@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:26
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judging Landing &
takoffs. (was Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ladies and Gentlemen</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Our game requires competitors and judges. The competitors apply the
requirements of the game (maneuvers - rules) and the judges score the
quality of performance. Without both, there is no game. Some are better
than others, both as competitors and judges. We generally don't demean the
less skilled flyer but try to help him / her improve. A judge should receive
the same.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I recall (us old guys get to do this) a time when judges and the
interpretation of the rules were unique to each contest. A CD would fill
chairs anyway possible with both skilled and unskilled judges. This was true
even at the Nats, soliciting the spectators at the last minute for anyone
willing to take a stab at judging. Often scores were higher for familiar
pilots, as they had "paid their dues."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A few dedicated and skilled folks set about to fix that. The USPJA
was formed and provided a pool of folks from which to draw for major meets.
The pilots enjoyed meets where the judges were experienced and "usually"
there were plenty of judges. While there were judges meetings to review the
rules at major meets, the interpretation sometimes varied and the pilots
could be unaware of expectations. Of course both used the same rulebook, but
we all know how interpretation can vary. We criticized the folks that were
willing to of take their time to judge our game until they were / are no
more. We would have been better served to help them.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The NSRCA Judge Certification program came into being. It was, and
still is, the best thing ever done to improve pattern competition. (With the
possible exception of the equal exposure to judges rule.) Of course a pilot
would be foolish to compete without knowing the rules and is therefore an
excellent candidate for judging. For a while we enjoyed a good mix of both
flying and non-flying judges. Then the latter began to diminish, could it be
that they simply got tired of working for the pattern competitor and getting
griped at in return? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So we're now using pilot / judges for the most part. Guess what, we're
still griping about scores and working harder! I've judged numerous meets
over the years and within the various systems. I've not known one judge who
I regarded as dishonest. Some are more skilled than others, some are more
informed of the rules, and some didn't have clue. It really doesn't matter
if they fly or not. Fortunately the cert program has minimized the
clueless.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>No individual, no matter their experience, falls into the hallowed few
category. Just what is the correct score for a given maneuver? I may observe
downgrades that someone else doesn't and vice versa. It's interesting to
line up a group of judges and score a maneuver (not a whole flight) and
then discuss the individual scores and why. This exercise demonstrates why
there needs to be as many judges on a line as possible. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We have a tendency to assign our view of a persons judging capability
to the class they fly. Why is this? Is the FAI or Masters pilot smarter or
better educated or more familiar with the rules than the Intermediate or
Advanced pilot? I don't think so! Neither is the non-flying judge less
qualified because they don't fly. The class a person flies only demonstrates
their skill level as a pilot. I suspect there are folks who would excel at
judging and might like to give it a shot if ask.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is getting too long, but I will state that I have worked with a
good number of different pilot / judges at the Nats and elsewhere and find
them, while not always enthused about having to judge, dedicated and
competent in performing the job. (The only exception I may find in this is
when I review my own flight scores :>)). Judging will always be a work in
progress and let me assure you that it's significantly better than it
once was. We all must work within the rules to ensure consistent
interpretation and accept that we will not always agree.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Earl</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>