<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Nik, my experience pretty much echoes Dave's. In fact, a couple years ago at Tony's contest, the 4C owners lost no less than a dozen and half rounds <BR>
of competitive flying due to 4C problems of all sorts, including dying at idle. And there were no 2C problems at all all weekend, eventhough half the planes there were 2C powered.<BR>
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The point is that 2C and 4C all have their idiosyncracies and will stop working at many inopportune places and times.
No powerplant is immune to this, even electrics when the Bats go south<BR>
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Matt K<BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj:<B>Re: My Head is Spinning! (Long) </B><BR>
Date:1/10/2004 11:46:20 AM Eastern Standard Time<BR>
From:<A HREF="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A><BR>
Reply-to:<A HREF="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR>
To:<A HREF="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR>
<I>Sent from the Internet </I><BR>
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Nik,</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">From your time in the US, I remember calling a flight or two for you, and I also recall your 4C ran very nicely and that you were knowledgeable, comfortable, and confident with your equipment/setup. I suspect a 2C would also perform well for you (allowing for a learning curve as with any new engine). For now, if a 4C idles better for you, it may the best engine for you. If the only engines I'd ever seen quit at idle were 2Cs, I might share your opinion on this topic.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Over the past 5 years of running pattern 2Cs (approx 4,000 flights), depending on the weather conditions, prop, plane, etc - I've been running the idle on my pattern 2Cs at launch at somewhere between 1,500 and 1,800 RPM - most will idle slower if I care, but the lower idle just beats up the airframe (still nothing near as bad as the 4C idle tho), so I don't bother. Outside of deliberate testing (to learn, understand, define operating parameters), I rarely have deadsticks (save when I run out of fuel, which is often enough <G>). If my engine quits at idle, 90% of the time it is the plug - and I've been known to get complacement with changing the plug as it generally lasts for 200-300 flights. A couple times the problem was that I had the idle "kill" switch active. A couple times it was throttle servo showing wear on the pot (after many, many flights, think 500+). Plugs, kill switches, and servo pots are all easy preventive maintenance and equally affect 2C or 4Cs (tho they affect those with "old timers" disease and CRS with a vengeance).</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Without having been at the EC or WC or knowing any of the particulars of the dead sticks or the pilots that had the deadsticks, it is quite difficult for me to comment. I doubt any of the pilots that had the deadsticks anticipated or expected any deadsticks - or routinely experienced deadsticks prior to the Worlds - I would think that the majority of the pilots at the Worlds would have reliable equipment - especially the "peak" competitors.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I reguarly attend the US Nats and have seen plenty of 4Cs die in the air (2Cs as well). The year the DZ was introduced, several did not make it into the air at all (bit of a learning curve initially with that engine, as with many engines, and it seemed pretty indiscriminate of "peak" or novice flyer). This year at the US Nats F3A Finals and US Team Trials, a couple 4Cs were having problems (some 2Cs as well, one was mine and completely my own fault - a rather untimely brain "fade" <G>). Your statement that "a deadstick after say, a long downline, is ALWAYs a 2C" is not at all consistent with what I have seen at local and national contests in the US (from "peak" flyers through novice flyers).</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The first 3 US Nationals I attended I had no plan or hope of placing near the top of my class - but I did participate in those contests equally with those in attendance who were "peak" flyers and did have aspirations of winning the class. Point being, just because I flew at the US Nationals did not mean I was a "peak" flyer - but I was equal to the "peak" flyers in many respects and competed at the Nationals just as the "peak" flyers (in a sense, by definition, not all the competitors at a competion can be "peak" competitors).</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Again, if I'd only ever seen 2Cs die at idle in the air, I might share your opinion. As it is, enjoy the consistent idle of your (4C) engine, and I'll enjoy the consistent idle of my (2C) engine.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Regards,</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Dave Lockhart</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><A HREF="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>From:</B> <A HREF="mailto:middlen4@btinternet.com">Nik Middleton</A> <BR>
<B>To:</B> <A HREF="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 09, 2004 2:41 PM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> RE: My Head is Spinning! (Long)<BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Dave valid comments.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">But....</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Setting aside, initial costs, total cost of ownership etc, the ONE thing that keeps me firmly in the 4C camp is consistent idle. What I have witnessed with my own eyes at US/European Nats, and World championships, is that if there is a dead stick after say, a long downline, it is ALWAYS and I really do mean always, a 2C. You might say that it's an incorrect setup, but if the people at the peak are having this problem, what hope for us mere mortals?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">rgds</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
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