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<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>This is so true Gray, well said.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>If
I may also add there is probably another aspect that you guys are perhaps not
seeing. PL being French, and not being all that far from Paris are located near
one of the most expensive places in the world. These guys have what I would
imagine some serious labour costs. ZN being in Belgium? I would say, would fare
not much better in that department either. Lets face it Europe is an expensive
place, higher labour costs, higher cost of living etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>Now
add to the fact that the US Dollar is no longer # 1, you guys are probably
experiencing for the first time in a very long time, what the rest of us
have had to live with for 20 odd years. The fact that your Dollar does not
have the purchasing power it used to have. So quite logically, the market
'decides' and you start looking domestically for the products you wish
for.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Australians are generally very resourceful due to the fact that
our dollar has been in the toilet for near on 20 years, but modelling has always
been expensive. Now in my case......I paid for my PL's some 6-9 months ago, and
ofcourse for the first time in 20 years our dollar has gained near on 25% on
just about every currency, just in the recent few months. So I lost
again !!!!! No one's fault, just the way the cookie crumbles I guess, but
make no mistakes, financially it hurts and I question my decision virtually
every day.....particularly since I've been flying my own designs for so
long.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>So
guys, I guess you fellas in the States will simply have to get used to the fact
that your dollar does not have the purchasing power it used to have for items
which you import. Luckily you have such a huge domestic market that someone may
fill the 'gap', should one appear. I do however think that both ZN and PL do a
terrific job, simply in making these things available to those that
want them.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>I
also wish to add to Troy's comments. I too have experience with both
manufacturers and I'm not sure its a clear cut thing that one offers a better
kit than the other. What one lacks the other makes up for. I could get specific,
but I'm not sure it would be 'called for' with this
reply.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>I
guess what it all boils down to is...if you want a kit ( from any
manufacturer for that matter) pick one and pay for it and don't try to
analyse it, get on with it. Then decide what follows........</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>If
you really cant find what you want, then design your own and build the
thing......put the 'modelling' back into modelling. I've seen so many
skills just simply vanish in the last 5 years it ain't
funny! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>Or
buy that ARF that some poor fella slaved over for a week for the
equivalent wages of a bowl of rice. At least Mr Zn and PL are eating a
decent meal........ Gray may just have moved up to baked beans and toast
<VBG> and he truly is happy he's got a proper job to pay for the
bread!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Pick your poison and live with it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=607144420-11012004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>Tom
( in the bunker!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Gray E Fowler
[mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 10 January 2004 2:35
AM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Pl
Lazulite-really cost of pattern kits<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>Why are these kits so expensive? As a manufacturer of
pattern kits I can offer some insight. Not long ago,1999 I paid $425 for a
Prophecy kit. This kit was a wet layup, a couple of layers of fiberglass, and
chin cover and belly cover of the same contruction, and the needed foam pieces
for for wings/stab. Great plane good value. Now look at the construction of
the kits everyone is getting now. Vacuum bagged "A" sandwich fuses
needing no additional formers, twice the area size of the older kit at about
the same weight, primed-painted in the mold, preskinned wings and stab, carbon
fiber, kevelar reinforcements. </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>What
this means is these kits require about twice the labor of the older kits, and
for materials....I buy 1 square yard of fiberglass (like the old kits were
made from) for $4-5/yd. The carbon fiber used on the CF-Aries and the up
coming Symphony costs $75/yd-no kidding.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=2>In addition, to these costs, to make these complex planes better and
more accurrate, the use of 3-D CAD is really a necessity. You can do it by
hand for hundreds and hundreds of hours or you can do it on the computer for
thousands and thousands (and thousands) of dollars. Everyone wants preskinned
wings and ARFS because they do not have time to build....same with us, so we
opted for the 3-D CAD, and I assume so does Pl and ZN.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>If you want to see what I mean by the 3D CAD go to the
Aeroslave web site and click on the Symphony. 3-D CAD is great, but very
expensive, and that has to be passed on to the consumer. </FONT><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>Pl and ZN have alot of secondary cost issues because
they are imported. Remove all that and you have about an $800-1200 kit, that
is much more complex and has extras never offered on the $425 kit.
</FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As you can see, I still work a real
job, manufacturing composite missiles and bombs (and loving it) for the
pointed delivery to the bad guys, because I would starve on pattern planes
alone. Most pattern suppliers are like Aeroslave...doing it because we thought
it would be fun-it sure aint for the money....even with the expensive
kits.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>In opinionated summary...I
think todays kits are a better value than yestedays kits.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Gray
Fowler<BR>Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Composites
Engineering</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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