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<P align=left><FONT size=2>4. </FONT></B><FONT size=2>Both complete and partial
square loops must<SPAN class=260224600-05082004> </SPAN>have corners which
are constant and identical radii,<SPAN class=260224600-05082004> </SPAN>i.e.,
the corner loops must be perfect arcs which are<SPAN class=260224600-05082004>
</SPAN>equal in size. Any inequality in loop size or defect in<SPAN
class=260224600-05082004> </SPAN>circularity should be downgraded in relation to
the<SPAN class=260224600-05082004> </SPAN>severity of the defect.</FONT></P>
<P align=left><SPAN class=260224600-05082004><FONT size=2>I think the key
words here are "Any inequality" (and not "Any inequalities to the initial
loop segment")</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>mike
mueller<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judging
questions<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Bob, I totally agree with your point here. Mike<BR><BR><B><I>Bob
Pastorello <rcaerobob@cox.net></I></B> wrote:
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<DIV>Someone illuminate for me...how can one say the first part radii does
NOT set the standard, when it is compared to other part radii's in the whole
maneuver???? Am I missing something that is so fundamental that I am
blind to it?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Or was that part of the downgrade not identified in the rule
book?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Or do I not have the most current rule book?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net/">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Rcmaster199@aol.com
href="mailto:Rcmaster199@aol.com">Rcmaster199@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Webra and Judging
questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Dave, I echo DL's comments. Don't think twice about it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Basically, in any maneuver requiring a radius to enter it and exit
it, (pretty much all non-rolling maneuvers), none of the radii within the
maneuver are "THE Standard One" that the others are compared to for
equivalence. They all stand alone and are compared to the others within
the maneuver. If the judge sees the same radii for all looping elements,
he assesses no downgrade for the looping elements. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Note that there are other elements in most maneuvers such as lines,
rolls and multiple point rolls,angles, snap rolls, and
superposition within a single plane (like two loops) etc., so
there are downgrades galore in any maneuver just waiting. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If all four looping elements (4 corners in Dave's example square
loop) are different, then they are all different compared to each other.
Depending on severity, I assess 3-4 point downgrade for this infraction
alone if that's all I saw different. Remember it's the pilot's
responsibility to fly with the most precision possible because
maneuver accuracy is absolute and not relative. He must also make the
maneuver as easy to judge as to leave no doubt in the judge's mind.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>HOWEVER, (caps to make the point) If I did not see an error, I award
the maximum points possible. I know some say that there is no maneuver
that can possibly be done perfectly. Personally, I don't know how true
such a statement is but IF I didn't see an error, then it did not happen
for me, regardless of how much the pilot had to fight the plane in a
crosswind to make the maneuver perfect. Always remember to judge track and
not attitude, since every maneuver must be flown in a wind corrected
fashion if there's wind present</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Judging the present day schedules is not easy or for the faint of
heart. Please never hesitate to ask for advice on judging of any of us
long timers. It is the part of our sport that needs the most work still
and I ask all who read this to become better students of judging. There is
a great amount of information that must be assimilated to be a fair
judge. Please, please, please, ask questions. Consider how much
time we spend flying and honing our skills. Is it fair for an
incompetent, uncaring judge to judge someone's superior flying
skill?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards and my apologies for the long note,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mattk</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>Dave,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>No pardon needed.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Obviously enough, once the 1st radius is completed, it must be
duplicated 3 times or downgrades will occur. However, the idea is
this - 3 of 4 radii (any 3) on a square loop match - the 4th (any 1) is
larger or smaller. It doesn't matter whether the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or
4th radius is the one that does not match - the downgrade is for 1
radius being mismatched.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A square loop at center could have 4 radii that are all different
and still be a square - judge the overall shape of the maneuver - ie
-</DIV>
<DIV>- up and downline are equally spaced left/right of the center
pole and maintain vertical track, </DIV>
<DIV>- top and bottom lines maintain track with same entry/exit
altitude,</DIV>
<DIV>- distance between top/bottom lines is same as up/down lines.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And while I suspect you know, in addition to the entry and exit
radii needing to be equal on humpties, they are only 2 of the 3 radii in
the manuever - the entry and exit radii must be equal to the top (or
bottom) half loop radius. Same goes for things like the goldfish
(entry, exit, and 3/4 loop) and golfball (entry, exit, and 3/4 loop) in
the F3A schedules - and those are probably 2 of the manuevers where I've
seen the greatest variance in radii.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A title=mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:d.wartel@comcast.net
href="mailto:d.wartel@comcast.net">David Wartel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 03, 2004
8:32 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Webra and Judging
questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow"><FONT size=3>Please pardon my
ignorance, but I'm fairly new to pattern and judging.</FONT> <FONT
size=3>I'm having a hard time understanding this. Nothing was said
about this at the judging seminar I attended in June, (that I
remember) except that radii should be equal. Also, if maneuvers
are judged on symmetry, how can, for instance, a square loop or cuban
eight be symmetrical if the radii are not all
equal?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3>Matt, I hope you can clarify
your answer as it seems contradictory to me. On one hand the first
radius does not set the standard for the others, but the entry and
exit radii should be the same for Humpty's and top hats
etc??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow"
size=3>Dave</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
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