<DIV>Dave,</DIV>
<DIV>You made mention earlier in this line of discussion that the entry and exit radii of a humpty bump should be the same and that is true. </DIV>
<DIV>Just to further the discussion on that point for myself and maybe someone else, and Im looking for agreement or disagreement here, its my understanding that the radius of the 1/2 loop at the top of the humpty bump should also be equal to the entry and exit radii at the bottom of the maneuver. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> i.e.. You cant have entry and exit radii that match, but a larger radius on the 1/2 loop at the top without at least a 2 point downgrade I dont think. Because overall that means there are 2 different of a possible 4 total radii (1 entry 1/4 loop to upline, two 1/4 loops to make 1/2 loop at the top, and 1 exit 1/4 loop from downline to level flight) in a humpty bump. Its no different that the 4 radii of a square or round loop. Don, or any other rules guru, is this correct or am I offbase?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mike<BR><BR><B><I>John Ferrell <johnferrell@earthlink.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV>Because Tony proposed exactly that a cycle or two back and it was rejected. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell <BR><A href="http://dixienc.us/">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rcaerobob@cox.net href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">Bob Pastorello</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judging questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Someone illuminate for me...how can one say the first part radii does NOT set the standard, when it is compared to other part radii's in the whole maneuver???? Am I missing something that is so fundamental that I am blind to it?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Or was that part of the downgrade not identified in the rule book?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Or do I not have the most current rule book?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR><A href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A href="http://www.rcaerobats.net/">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=Rcmaster199@aol.com href="mailto:Rcmaster199@aol.com">Rcmaster199@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:32 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Webra and Judging questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Dave, I echo DL's comments. Don't think twice about it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Basically, in any maneuver requiring a radius to enter it and exit it, (pretty much all non-rolling maneuvers), none of the radii within the maneuver are "THE Standard One" that the others are compared to for equivalence. They all stand alone and are compared to the others within the maneuver. If the judge sees the same radii for all looping elements, he assesses no downgrade for the looping elements. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Note that there are other elements in most maneuvers such as lines, rolls and multiple point rolls,angles, snap rolls, and superposition within a single plane (like two loops) etc., so there are downgrades galore in any maneuver just waiting. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If all four looping elements (4 corners in Dave's example square loop) are different, then they are all different compared to each other. Depending on severity, I assess 3-4 point downgrade for this infraction alone if that's all I saw different. Remember it's the pilot's responsibility to fly with the most precision possible because maneuver accuracy is absolute and not relative. He must also make the maneuver as easy to judge as to leave no doubt in the judge's mind.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>HOWEVER, (caps to make the point) If I did not see an error, I award the maximum points possible. I know some say that there is no maneuver that can possibly be done perfectly. Personally, I don't know how true such a statement is but IF I didn't see an error, then it did not happen for me, regardless of how much the pilot had to fight the plane in a crosswind to make the maneuver perfect. Always remember to judge track and not attitude, since every maneuver must be flown in a wind corrected fashion if there's wind present</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Judging the present day schedules is not easy or for the faint of heart. Please never hesitate to ask for advice on judging of any of us long timers. It is the part of our sport that needs the most work still and I ask all who read this to become better students of judging. There is a great amount of information that must be assimilated to be a fair judge. Please, please, please, ask questions. Consider how much time we spend flying and honing our skills. Is it fair for an incompetent, uncaring judge to judge someone's superior flying skill?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards and my apologies for the long note,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mattk</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>Dave,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>No pardon needed.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Obviously enough, once the 1st radius is completed, it must be duplicated 3 times or downgrades will occur. However, the idea is this - 3 of 4 radii (any 3) on a square loop match - the 4th (any 1) is larger or smaller. It doesn't matter whether the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th radius is the one that does not match - the downgrade is for 1 radius being mismatched.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A square loop at center could have 4 radii that are all different and still be a square - judge the overall shape of the maneuver - ie -</DIV>
<DIV>- up and downline are equally spaced left/right of the center pole and maintain vertical track, </DIV>
<DIV>- top and bottom lines maintain track with same entry/exit altitude,</DIV>
<DIV>- distance between top/bottom lines is same as up/down lines.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And while I suspect you know, in addition to the entry and exit radii needing to be equal on humpties, they are only 2 of the 3 radii in the manuever - the entry and exit radii must be equal to the top (or bottom) half loop radius. Same goes for things like the goldfish (entry, exit, and 3/4 loop) and golfball (entry, exit, and 3/4 loop) in the F3A schedules - and those are probably 2 of the manuevers where I've seen the greatest variance in radii.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A title=mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:d.wartel@comcast.net href="mailto:d.wartel@comcast.net">David Wartel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:discussion@nsrca.org href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:32 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Webra and Judging questions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow"><FONT size=3>Please pardon my ignorance, but I'm fairly new to pattern and judging.</FONT> <FONT size=3>I'm having a hard time understanding this. Nothing was said about this at the judging seminar I attended in June, (that I remember) except that radii should be equal. Also, if maneuvers are judged on symmetry, how can, for instance, a square loop or cuban eight be symmetrical if the radii are not all equal?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3>Matt, I hope you can clarify your answer as it seems contradictory to me. On one hand the first radius does not set the standard for the others, but the entry and exit radii should be the same for Humpty's and top hats etc??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=3>Dave</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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