<DIV>Hey Andre. Hope all is well up North.</DIV>
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<DIV>I agree, but my point is not what the rules call for, but more what is looked for at contests. I used to try to fly accurate 45 degree angles only to get low scores. As soon as I increased the angle to 53 or so(more than 45) the scores went up significantly. Again, what actually is a true 45, especially when the horizon is angled, tree lines and other frames of reference can skew what is perceived. again, my opinion.</DIV>
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<DIV>ed<BR><BR><B><I>Andre Bouchard <akfai@gci.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Emphasizing what Steve Maxwell has said, true geometry must be flown at all times because....the rules do not say: pull to what will appear to the judge to be a 45 degree line;" they say "pull to a 45 degree line," meaning a real 45 degree line, etc.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Andre' Bouchard</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=patternrules@sbcglobal.net href="mailto:patternrules@sbcglobal.net">Steven maxwell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 22, 2004 8:09 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Some Diagrams & Judging video</DIV>
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<DIV> I think you can get it from Maureen she monitors the list and will probably chime in.</DIV>
<DIV> Steve Maxwell<BR><BR><B><I>Ted Sander <<A href="mailto:tedsander@comcast.net">tedsander@comcast.net</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lots of really good points here – something to think about as I get ready for my annual stint as a judge for a local event this coming weekend. (“Those who can, enter – Those who can’t judge!”)</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Anybody have a resource for how to get the Judging video Steve referred to? Being a once-or-twice a year judge, it would really help to keep me up brushed up on how to look at the maneuvers. Always hated having to judge that first contestant or two of the event, because I knew I wasn’t in the groove of what to look at, yet. Unfortunately, attending a NATS or similar seminar may not ever be in my future…</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ted Sander</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Steven maxwell<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Sunday, August 22, 2004</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">8:14 AM</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Some Diagrams</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Refering to the Judging video, answers these questions without a doubt that true geometery is to be flown at all times, and the video does say that the turnaround 45 degree line will appear to be steeper than a center manuvuer, I watch this at least twice at the begining of the pattern season, and twice a week or 2 before the Nat's. Now throw in the human element and it has been proven at the Nat's that many view many things differently, scores have been seen 8,9, and 0, now it has been said many times that the spin and snap are the hardest to judge and do correctly,but these points can also vary on lines and radius, so if at local contest you have one judge that like a certian look as opposed to the other judges, I was recently at a contest and upon completion of my flight one judge told me the "was a beutiful 4 point roll" and the other judge agreed, so I
looked at my scores both 8's. I sujested at one time that if we had only one judge that done a perfect job, then we wouldn't need any more than the one, all this would probably be impossiable, as will be to get perfect judging or flying. All of you have made good points here and this is the best of of what this list is about to bad all members aren't on it.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Steve Maxwell <BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Ed Deaver <divesplat@yahoo.com></SPAN></I></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hey Keith, I have thought about this quite a bit. Here are some conclusions I've had;</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1) Having drawn out 45 degrees and examined it, most judges will downgrade for a true 45 degrees on a center manuever. Most judges(pilots) want to see about 50-55 degrees to award a high score(IMO) Without geometric tools and a perfect horizon, it is difficult to see and for all judges to have the same opinion on "what is 45 degrees"</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2) For center manuevers you will receive a higher downgrade for being too "flat" as opposed to too "steep"(again IMO) Try to error on the steeper side for any center manuever 45's. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3) On end manuevers, I have seen people pulling 75 degree angles in the defense it is at the end of the box. To quote a psychiatrist somewhere, "Perception is Reality" Personnally believe it is fopah to pull a line really steep in the belief the judges will extrapolate a lesser angle, just because it is at the end of the box. Judges score on what they SEE, not what they calculate. If the 45 degree angle at the end of the box, appears 45 degrees I think you will get the higher score. If the angle looks 60degrees that is a solid 1 pt deduction. However, see 2 above.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">4) Lastly, a pilot/judges opinion of what is round/45 degrees/stalled etc, etc revolves around what they are exposed to and how they are exposed to it also. So a perfect 45 degree line may be downgraded or the 60 degree line rewarded simply because that is what someone see routinely at their field of practice. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just some thoughts. Am curious as to others opinions also.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">ed</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>