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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm glad you mentioned this Bob. When I was just
getting started in pattern (my second pattern contest) I asked an
experienced judge why he had downgraded my 1/2 reverse Cuban turn-around so much
(I wasn't complaining, just trying to learn). He told me it was too flat and
informed me that 45 degree angles at the end of the box will appear steeper from
the center vantage point, therefore I need to fly the angle so it looks more
like 60 degrees in order for it to actually be 45 deg. This was a surprise
to me but I accepted his explanation since I knew of his background.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since that time I've flown the end of box maneuvers
steeper to compensate for the difference in perception. However, on a few
occasions people have commented that my angles at the end of the box are too
steep (and they probably are sometimes), but your comment makes me wonder
whether others are looking for the end of box angles to "appear" to be 45
degrees, or if it's a commonly know fact that they will appear steeper when
actually 45 degrees. In other words, what do most judges look for? The
appearance of 45 degree angles or what they know through experience is the
"steeper" appearance that is actually 45 degrees? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcaerobob@cox.net href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">Bob Pastorello</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:09
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Some Diagrams</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>EXCEPT that the manuevers must APPEAR to have 45
deg, or 60, or 90 - whatever - as this is judged by the viewers PERCEPTION of
those angles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wgalligan@goodsonacura.com
href="mailto:wgalligan@goodsonacura.com">Wayne Galligan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 21, 2004 9:30
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Some Diagrams</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Exactly Ted...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Like when doing a 1/2 Cuban eight on the ends
in Intermediate. The 45 degree line will appear to be steep if
it is done at 45 degrees. When done to look right the angle will be
shallower and the plane will also finish the maneuver closer to center
depending on how far out the maneuver was started. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OR the figure 8 on center. The new square
8 in Master is going to be an interesting one to judge too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good points and something that should be
discussed in judging seminars.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne Galligan</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tedsander@comcast.net href="mailto:tedsander@comcast.net">Ted
Sander</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 21, 2004 8:26
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Some Diagrams</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Very interesting
Bob! A few years ago I was messing around with a 3D animation
program (Bryce 3), and tried my hand at making a clip showing a plane
tracing out a basic loop while following a “ribbon in the sky” – ie, the
path looked like those shown in the maneuver descriptions in the AMA rule
book. It allowed for perspective effects, placement of viewpoint and
all the other usual stuff a 3D program can do. So, on to my
point: When I mathematically made the loop perfectly round, it had a
distinct egg shape to it when the view point was moved from the same level
as the center of the radius, to a more typical 5 ft from the ground,
looking up. In order to get a loop that looked round from a typical
judge/pilot position, I had to squish it from the top a fair bit –
indicating to me that as we fly our planes over the top, it’s not enough
to keep the radius consistent, we actually have to pull harder on the top
side, to keep everything looking right – in other words, we don’t actually
fly a true constant radius loop, because of perspective effects.
Makes it all so much harder than just keeping airspeed and angle of attack
constant – because we have to vary the shape to make it look right.
While I didn’t go back to look at other maneuvers in more detail, it has
always stuck with me that this effect also rears it’s head everywhere else
too. Kind of the visual version of the upwind/downwind debates – so
much depends on the frame of reference. Would be interesting to hear
others take on this subject……</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ted
Sander</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Pastorello<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday,
August 17, 2004 6:14 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Some
Diagrams</SPAN></FONT></P>
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size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">After getting
some feedback about geometry, I thought I'd draw out a few of my more
problematic ones. They may help you, too....</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net/ManueverDiagrams.htm">http://www.rcaerobats.net/ManueverDiagrams.htm</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR>Bob
Pastorello<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>