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<DIV>
<DIV>Dean</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since the very nature of how servos function involves control input (from
the ground) and position info (onboard) (feedback loop) it seems obvious
that onboard feedback loops are not only permitted, but necessary. A good
example of an expansion of this is EGT to control engine A/F. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have toyed with the idea of an airspeed feedback loop to the throttle,
where airspeed is set by stick position and the "loop" works to maintain that
speed. In discussions with folks, I find that many interpret this as violating
the intent of the "no feedback" rule while careful interpretation might result
in a different conclusion. Basis current rules, any communication between a
motor and ESC would seem quite legal. Adding speed input, I suspect could
trigger a rules change.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Earl</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean Pappas</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Motor Costs Comparison (more
pro-electric)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">
<P align=left><SPAN class=663471514-21092004><FONT face=Arial>Hi
John,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P align=left><SPAN class=663471514-21092004><FONT face=Arial>As I read this,
a motor speed controller is just as legal as a motor applied voltage
controller.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P align=left><SPAN class=663471514-21092004><FONT face=Arial>The following is
excerpted from section 5.1.2 of the Sporting Code:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P align=left><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P align=left>Radio equipment shall be of the open loop type (i.e. no
electronic feedback from the model aircraft to the</P>
<P align=left>ground). Auto-pilot control utilising inertia, gravity or any
type of terrestrial reference is prohibited. Automatic</P>
<P align=left>control sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic control timing
devices are prohibited.</P>
<P align=left>Example:Permitted:</P>
<P align=left>1. Control rate devices that are manually switched by the
pilot.</P>
<P align=left>2. Any type of button or lever control that is initiated and
terminated by the pilot.</P>
<P align=left>3. Manually operated switches to couple control functions.</P>
<P align=left>Not permitted:</P>
<P align=left>1. Snap buttons with automatic timing mode.</P>
<P align=left>2. Preprogramming devices to automatically perform a series of
commands.</P>
<P align=left>3. Auto-pilots for automatic wing leveling.</P>
<P align=left>4. Propeller pitch change with automatic timing mode.</P>
<P align=left>5. Any type of voice recognition system.</P>
<P align=left>6. Any type of learning function involving manoeuvre to
manoeuvre or flight to flight analysis.</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=663471514-21092004>Thanks for jogging me to give the section
a critical reading,</SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>John Ferrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 20, 2004 7:50
PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Motor Costs
Comparison (more pro-electric)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I hate to be a party pooper, but a constant speed control loop is not
permitted under the existing FAI Rules as I understand it for our wet
engines. Is it allowable for the dry whiners?</DIV>
<DIV>BTW, I am all for closed loop control devices...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell <BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 20, 2004
12:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Motor Costs Comparison
(more pro-electric)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=370124516-20092004>Hi John</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>No fuzzy logic! When the stick moves. something deterministic should
happen!</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=370124516-20092004>I suspect that the existing ESC makers
already have all the hardware needed, as brushless brakes only require an
intentionally retarded commutation timing, while brushed motors require
the additional shorting transistors. But you can never have enough
projects going at once ... eh?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=370124516-20092004>We'll t</SPAN>alk later,</DIV>
<DIV>Dean</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>John Pavlick<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 17, 2004
9:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Motor
Costs Comparison (more pro-electric)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=400170301-18092004>Dean & Matt,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=400170301-18092004> Yes. I forgot to mention the
the "programmability" factor of an electric motor. Whereas a glow
motor's characteristics come from mechanical things (bore, stroke, port
timing, etc.), an electric motor and speed controller can work together
to alter the torque curve. Some speed controls take advantage of
this now, but most people don't realize it. The better speed controls
use a non linear type of output (I'm oversimplifying here) to make the
electric motor "feel" more like a glow motor. I haven't worked much with
the brushless motors but I have a bit of experience with the can motors
(from R/C car racing). It seems like what we need is a speed controller
with a P.I.D. control loop. The currently available ones are one
dimensional / open loop. The throttle stick simply increases or
decreases the output of the motor. The speed controller just changes the
PWM duty cycle in direct response to the stick position. We need some
feedback and Fuzzy Logic to do this right. Dean: If you design the
hardware, I'll work on the code...</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=400170301-18092004>
<P>John
Pavlick<BR></P></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>