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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Sorry, sent this response to the wrong
subject line.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have no issues if one judge scores a
maneuver a 0, which the others may score it a 9 or so.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>The problem is getting all the judges to look
for the same things.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>There will always
be discrepancies in the scores.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>This is
a subjective matter.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>When we run into
problems is when the rules are interpreted multiple ways for the same
maneuver.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Unfortunately we could add 30
pages to the rule book, just on the definition of snaps, and we’d still
be having this discussion.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I’m not
sure there is a good way to clarify the rules so that everyone looks for the
same things.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>The frustrating ones as a
pilot are when you ask afterwards, and you have a judge say “yes, I saw
it break, but it was not enough of a break,” and that was from a judge
that was up for consideration for being the judge that we send to France next
year.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>To me that <span class=GramE>is</span>
like saying, “yes, you did a 4 point roll, but you did not stop long
enough at each point.”<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>DaveL322@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December 29, 2004
2:23 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> discussion@nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Re: [SPAM] Re:
Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Errors in track can occur in pitch, roll, and yaw. They are all
subject to downgrades on the basis of 1 point per 15 degrees.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Whatever the appropriate downgrade is for "excessive" vertical
displacement on a snap should be the same downgrade that is applied for
"excessive" lateral displacement. Depending on the position of
the snap (viewing angle), the vertical and and/or lateral displacement may be
very hard to see.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Snaps occur from a stalled condition - achieved by the
"break" which must be visible. No break, score is
zero. While there is not a specific downgrade for displacement
(vertically or laterally), I believe the 1 point per 15 degree rule can be
applied. If the overall geometry of a manuever is adversely effected by
the displacement of the snap, the downgrade should be 1 point per 15 degrees of
geometric error in the maneuver. For instance -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- 45 downline with 1 positive snap in calm air.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- Assume no other defects excepting displacement in pitch during the
break.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- As measured between the finish of the entry radius and the start of
the exit radius, the track of the plane is a 30 degree angle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- The track of the plane is incorrect by 15 degrees. Using 1
point per 15 degrees the manuever would score a 9.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Obviously enough, the amount of displacement would have to be huge to
change the overall line by 15 degrees - so in practice, the deduction would be
much smaller than one point (if any).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Perhaps some relation to stall turns is possible -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- Stall turns can be downgraded for the upline and downline track not
being parallel.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- Stall turns can be additionally downgraded for the pivot radius being
too large (even when the upline and downline are parallel, but not superimposed).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Displacement in a snap is kind of like displacement in yaw at the top
of a stall turn. Ideally, an airplane yaws about the CG in a stall turn -
but this rarely happens in practice - so the rules allow for a
nominal pivot radius (displacement) without downgrade. I think this
same idea could be applied to displacement (vertical and lateral) of snaps -
but it would have to be in the rulebook.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thoughts? (as if this string won't run on and on for the next few
days, <G>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
<br>
> This is another example of the intent of a thread wandering far
afoot....as the <br>
> original questioner, I'd like to refocus my point. <br>
> Simply put - according to our CURRENT rules, there is NOT a downgrade
criterion <br>
> for offsetting of the track during a snap maneuver. <br>
> I understand the "more skillful" guy should get a point reward
(by not getting <br>
> a downgrade that others may receive), but my point is ---- <br>
> What is the rule basis for the downgrade? <br>
> And since I'm specifically talking about LATERAL track offsets, not
vertical <br>
> or angular, there aren't "general" guidelines to handle this. <br>
> My point being that there SHOULD NOT be a scored difference between the
line <br>
> that shifts and the line that doesn't, all other factors being identical
between <br>
> the quality of the two snaps.....simply because we don't have the criteria
<br>
> identified. <br>
> <br>
> Or am I just being logical again? <br>
> > <br>
> > From: Bill Glaze <br>
<BILLGLAZE@TRIAD.RR.COM>> > Date: 2004/12/29 Wed PM 01:39:00 EST <br>
> > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
> > Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it
so <br>
> quiet?) <br>
> > <br>
> > Ed: <br>
> > If a new track is acceptable, then, that is a de facto downgrading
(by <br>
> > not allowing for extra skill) that is being applied to the pilot who <br>
> > can, and does, perform a real snap, as opposed to a "fake"
snap, and <br>
> > keep it on the same line. By not downgrading the pilot who shows a <br>
> > different track even though it is parallel, you are not giving a
premium <br>
> > to the pilot who can perform the difficult task of keeping the snap
on <br>
> > the same line of the maneuver. It can be done; first time I ever saw
it <br>
> > was at the TOC on a vertical snap where all the competitors save for
one <br>
> > person, were offsetting their vertical snaps 2 wingspans to the
right, <br>
> > (double snap rolls, to the right) This individual was able to keep
his <br>
> > snap rolls exactly in line. They looked much better. Was he rewarded?
<br>
> > In a way, I guess. That year he won the TOC, but not, of course, for <br>
> > snap rolls alone!<G> BTW: I believe you were there that year, Ed. <br>
> > Again: Sorry to be so prolux! <br>
> > <br>
> > Bill Glaze <br>
> > <br>
> > Ed Alt wrote: <br>
> > <br>
> > > Hi Dave: <br>
> > > Track & heading are different things, so I'm referring to a
new track, <br>
> > > exactly parallel to the original one, being 100% acceptable. A
new <br>
> > > heading however, ought to be subject to the point per 15 degrees
criteria. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Ed <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > From: David Lockhart <br>
<mailto:DaveL322_x0040_comcast.net>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 11:40 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?) <br>
> > > <br>
> > > More than 1 pilot was awarded 1 or more zeros in the 2004 US
NATs <br>
> > > F3A final on snap maneuvers. The "average" snap in
subsequent <br>
> > > flights in the finals showed more break / displacement (of
course, <br>
> > > any break / displacement is infinitely more compared to none, <br>
> > > ahem.....). <br>
> > > <br>
> > > A stalled entry is a required element of spins - no stalled <br>
> > > entry, score equals zero. No different for snaps. Judges are <br>
> > > required to judge what they actually see (not what they think <br>
> > > may have happened), and pilots are required to show /
demonstrate <br>
> > > / complete all required elements to avoid downgrades (which may
be <br>
> > > a downgrade to zero). <br>
> > > <br>
> > > To specifically answer Bob's question - my opinion - if the <br>
> > > geometry of the manuever is not compromised, then no downgrade. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Another question(s) - In a given maneuver involving a snap, the <br>
> > > exit track of the plane is 15 degrees different than the track <br>
> > > prior to the snap. What is the downgrade if the change in track <br>
> > > is abrupt? What is the downgrade if the change in track is
smooth? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Regards and Happy Holidays, <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Dave Lockhart <br>
> > > DaveL322@comcast.net <br>
<mailto:DaveL322_x0040_comcast.net>> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > <br>
> > > From: Ed Alt <br>
<mailto:Ed_Alt_x0040_hotmail.com>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 11:04 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so <br>
> > > quiet?) <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Good topic Bob. If the model really did a snap roll, it had <br>
> > > to displace somewhat. If not, and if you could actually tell <br>
> > > that it did not, that could be an indicator that a snap roll <br>
> > > did not actually happen. Generally, the model has to displace <br>
> > > to a new track, however slight, from the yawing and pitching <br>
> > > moments introduced. The criteria should perhaps be that you <br>
> > > are able to able to maintain the new track exactly in parallel <br>
> > > to the pre-snap track. How much offset is OK is hard to say, <br>
> > > but things generally start looking suspicious whan it's much <br>
> > > more than a couple of wingspans. You would generally start to <br>
> > > see other obvious problems, such as barrel rolling, if the <br>
> > > displacement were really large. For another perspective, I <br>
> > > think the Scale Aerobatics Flying and Judging Guide does <br>
> > > a decent job of describing how to grade a snap. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Ed <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > From: Bob Pastorello <br>
<mailto:rcaerobob_x0040_cox.net>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 10:31 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Re: Why is it so quiet? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > It can be very, very bad. <br>
> > > Or not. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Let's talk about displacement of the flight track during <br>
> > > snap rolls. Whatcha y'all think? Is it downgradeable, <br>
> > > and if so how much, and what is the criteria? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Bob Pastorello <br>
> > > NSRCA 199 AMA 46373 <br>
> > > rcaerobob@cox.net <br>
<mailto:rcaerobob_x0040_cox.net>> > > www.rcaerobats.net <br>
<HTTP: www.rcaerobats.net>> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > From: Mike Hester <br>
<mailto:kerlock_x0040_comcast.net>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 9:21 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Re: Why is it so quiet? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Ya well, it's definitely not going on the primary <br>
> > > bird. For that I have a trusty OS 160FX with vp30 <br>
> > > pump. I know it will run when I want it to run. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Just like me "testing" a new design, testing my <br>
> > > feather cut, testing my composite skillz (or lack of), <br>
> > > so far so good. Of course I didn't make the YS, so <br>
> > > that one is more of a massochistic tendancy methinks. <br>
> > > I'm not skeert to spend a buck. Plus it wouldn't take <br>
> > > too much to drop in an OS if it comes to it. I've <br>
> > > gotta see for myself if the fire is as hot as it <br>
> > > looks. I usually suffer 3rd degree burns right after <br>
> > > one of these moments. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Classic last words: "How bad could it be?" =) <br>
> > > <br>
> > > -Mike <br>
> > > <br>
> > > PS Ok ok NEXT year. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > From: Bob Pastorello <br>
<mailto:rcaerobob_x0040_cox.net>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
> > > <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 9:47 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Re: Why is it so quiet? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > You have less than 3 days, then. Could be tricky <br>
> > > for you. <br>
> > > Besides, how does one "try" something that costs <br>
> > > $700+ ? Sounds a bit like "testing" the $3500 <br>
> > > plasma tv..... <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Bob Pastorello <br>
> > > NSRCA 199 AMA 46373 <br>
> > > rcaerobob@cox.net <br>
<mailto:rcaerobob_x0040_cox.net>> > > www.rcaerobats.net <br>
<HTTP: www.rcaerobats.net>> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > From: Mike Hester <br>
<mailto:kerlock_x0040_comcast.net>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
> > > <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 8:38 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Re: Why is it so quiet? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > YS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!! <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Better? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > =) <br>
> > > <br>
> > > -Mike <br>
> > > <br>
> > > P.S. I am actually going to try a DZ 160 some <br>
> > > time this year. This could mean the apocalypse <br>
> > > is near. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> > > From: William C. Harden <br>
> > > <br>
<mailto:flyinbill1_x0040_bellsouth.net>> > > To: discussion@nsrca.org <br>
> > > <br>
<mailto:discussion_x0040_nsrca.org>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 28,
2004 9:33 PM <br>
> > > Subject: Why is it so quiet? <br>
> > > <br>
> > > I know someone out there has something <br>
> > > interesting to say. So stir something up! <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Bill <br>
> > > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> Bob Pastorello, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">El Reno</st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">OK</st1:State>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>
<br>
> rcaerobob@cox.net <br>
> www.rcaerobats.net <br>
> <br>
> ================================================= <br>
> To access the email archives for this list, go to <br>
> http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/ <br>
> To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm <br>
> and follow the instructions. <br>
> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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