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<DIV><SPAN class=580542701-30122004>Is that all you guys can come up with? There
hasn't been a post to the list in almost 10 minutes! Why is it so
QUIET????</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=580542701-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=580542701-30122004>
<P><FONT size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A href="http://www.idseng.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.idseng.com</A><BR> </FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf
Of </B>Bob Pastorello<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Displacement
during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>Bravo, Ed! The figure skating analogy is exactly what I use when
I'm describing pattern to a non-flyer. They understand the idea of
"compulsories", which is basically what we're doing. They understand
complexity, also.</DIV>
<DIV> AND - nearly everyone understands that it is the
ULTIMATE in "impression" judging. In fact, in many of those events they
have a "technical" score (for us it would be geometry, accuracy,
exits/entries, etc) and an "artistic" score (which for us would be all the
elements of presentation, timing, finesse, "touch", etc)</DIV>
<DIV> Ed, I for one, am not at all afraid of joining your
comment about us "following" the FAI and it's effects on our maneuver
choices. We've lost a considerable amount of the grace and "artistry"
that precision aerobatics CAN have. </DIV>
<DIV> And by doing so, as you so astutely noted, we have
been FORCED to introduce judging criteria, parameters, and details that 90% of
us mere mortals cannot POSSIBLY differentiate, much less SEE.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Great comment, Ed!! Thank you for posting it!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:edbon85@charter.net" title=edbon85@charter.net>Ed Miller</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org"
title=discussion@nsrca.org>discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:10
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Displacement during snap
rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here last year
too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm about to say will
at the very least be controversial. That's fine with me as I think we need
to think outside the box more often. My wife enjoys watching figure skating.
Being the "supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch for a bit with
her. It seems in figure skating, the multiple rotation jumps, triples and
even quadruple rotation variations is where all the judging ( and
viewing ) emphasis is placed in a skaters routine. It also seems the
judging is focused on 2 things, the entry to the jump and "sticking" the
landing. Frankly, those that say they can see every element of the skaters
rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens too fast. I have better
eyesight than most, in my younger days I could pick up the stitching and
rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph. I'll admit, some of that
sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick up all the rotation elements
in a figure skaters jump in real time ( we all can when they replay it in
slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was introduced into precision
aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had the same problems judging snaps as
professional figure skating judges have judging triple toe loops. I have
watched ( and learned some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and
Pappas, yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in pitch ( entry
) and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me, we've introduced
snaps into precision aerobatics to separate the wanna be pattern jockey
hackers like me from the gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde,
etc. but in fact what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging
criteria. These talented flyers will find the setup and stick movements to
present a maneuver such that it defies the laws of gravity. However, most of
us are only humans and as judges, only judge what can we realistically see
and honestly assess in a snap roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done and
performed rotate at such a speed that again, the exit is the focus. Once in
awhile you can pick up the obvious aileron roll exit. There are many more
elements of a snap roll besides entry and exit yet as I
read/delete/read/delete, etc. the discussion we are having here, it boils
down to entry and exit positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in
opposite directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly takes
a lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap rolls, has
many more places for the pilot to screw up that are EASILY VISIBLE to
the judges besides the entry and exit points. That's precision aerobatics
IMHO. AMA pattern was always smooth and graceful until someone decided as
the FAI does, so must the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new maneuvers,
it's just raising the bar to let the cream rise to the top. I'm on the side
that the bar has sunk into the cream. Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA
members felt similarly.</DIV>
<DIV>Ed M</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>