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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave, as always, thoughtful
input....thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I, for one, (and perhaps the
ONLY one) would like to know pure and simple from the majority of folks playing
AMA pattern....a yes or a no to this question...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> <STRONG>"Should the progression
of classes within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to prepare a person for
the FAI class?"</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would like to have this question put to all
pattern fliers, and let the answer shape the design of our sequences.
Period.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> (I know this is a good example
of " be careful what you ask for ", but has it ever been asked??)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>A slight modification to the definition of a good pattern maneuver -
"Easy to fly, Hard to perfect, and easy to judge".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To me, judging at the most fundamental levels should really consist of 2
aspects -</DIV>
<DIV>1) Was the correct maneuver flown?</DIV>
<DIV>2) What downgrades should be applied based on an analysis of
each element/component of the maneuver?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The idea here is that all manuevers in all classes are composed of
distinct elements, to which end if a individual is capable of judging lines,
radii, roll rates, angles, centering, etc., they should be able to do so for
any class for which they have memorized the sequence. Good judging is
about judging the elements, not the overall impression of a manuever.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A different approach to judging is to develop a list specifically stating
downgrades for every possible error in every maneuver and then commit to
memory all of the the downgrades and hope the list is complete (and it never
will be). The list of specific maneuver downgrades would be far longer
than the list of elements, which can be applied to every maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If a particular manuever or element is too difficult to judge, then it is
that way for all classes. If "we" chose to remove snaps from the
sequences, it would only be from the AMA sequences (I doubt it would ever
happen in FAI), creating a distinct difference between AMA and FAI, which is
against the recent trend to harmonize AMA and FAI to the extent that is
practicable. BTW - the "ideal" airplane design and setup changes pretty
dramatically if snaps are not part of the sequence - same thing can be said to
a lesser extent if the combined roll/loop manuevers are absent.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With regard to what individuals / classes might want to see in "their"
schedule, some level of structure/planning/cohesiveness needs to be part of
the plan. Another debate for the ages has always been which jump between
classes is too large, too small, where the bigger jumps should be,
etc. Anyone who has been a part of developing a schedule (or a
whole set of schedules) knows how difficult it is to assemble a single
sequence with the goals of being easy to fly, hard to perfect, and easy
to judge - not to mention having a balance of different manuevers that
present nicely and are a part of an integrated set of sequences that
teach/stress specific aspects of piloting, setup, trimming, etc in a
progressive manner. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Original message -------------- <BR>Bob:<BR>I remember being told that a
good pattern maneuver is "hard to do, easy to judge." While I, too,
enjoy doing snaps, this discussion has made me wonder if there is any place
for them in pattern. And, I am beginning to backpedal (because I
admittedly like them) and am wondering if there is any place for them at all
except in, possibly, FAI. And even there, the only reason for them
would be the mandate by the international body. Inasmuch as I
have no control over this issue, I'm just musing.<BR><BR>Bill
Glaze<BR><BR>Bob Pastorello wrote:
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<DIV>That is an excellent point, Chris. And your modesty to not add
"Intermediate National Champion" to your credentials is noted.</DIV>
<DIV> The issue of a virtually-uncontrollable maneuver
EXCEPT for entry and exit, does bring a valid question about it's place in
our game. I think Ed Miller mentioned (sorry if wrong) that
longer-duration maneuvers with more easily-visible segments have their OWN
level of difficulty.</DIV>
<DIV> In '99, when I was working on the Rules Committee,
and we were designing new sequences one of the suggestions in Masters was
a Center maneuver, a square loop with 2/4 on U/D, 1/2 on horizontal
legs. We were TRASHED for even suggesting such a thing!!!</DIV>
<DIV> The reason I mention that is to consider
difficulty and pilot challenge, wouldn't most of us agree that the square
loop I describe would be more easily judged, and more challenging for the
majority of pilots than the downline SINGLE snap we have in '05 ???</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since we're in a rules cycle year, maybe this is a good time to
rethink the "required elements" of every class, and look more for "what do
guys WANT to have in the sequence?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Great thread starter, Chris.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net/">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White,
Chris</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:49 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls
discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Please excuse me if I'm repeating,
or committing a "faux pas" ( I think I spelled that right:) ) ....but I
am really interested in hearing opinions to the following:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>1) Do snap rolls add or detract from
the legitimacy of judging precision aerobatic pilots
capabilities?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>2) Do snap rolls add to the
credibility of precision aerobatics?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I'm new to the game, but a "stalled"
maneuver is a maneuver that is not "flown on the wing" . An
overwhelming percentage of the other maneuver segments in our
patterns are flown on the wing and are able to be judged accurately
and with a minimum of "impression" influence. Since the Snap
Roll it is not "flown" through it is not fully controlled....lack
of control indicates somewhat of a wildcard that penalizes capable
pilots experiencing a "bad" maneuver. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I have seen many good snap rolls in
competition, some done by great pilots, some by new guys.....my question
is: Should there be a "wild card" allowance? Is anyone capable of
flying consistent snap rolls that are consistently judgeable to clear
and concise requirements? I believe I'm hearing an
overwhelming "NO". If the answer is no, then maybe they should be
removed.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I fly RC pattern because in my
opinion it is more graceful and precise in appearance as compared to
IMAC.... not that I don't respect IMAC pilots capabilities and enjoy the
show. But, I s</SPAN><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>ometimes I
wonder how "Snap Rolls" fit into RC Pattern....and it sounds as if I'm
not the only one. (I like to see snaps....I just feel there
are variables beyond the pilots control which penalize
inconsistently) I think a pilot should be judged on control....not
inertial physics. (is that a real term????:) )</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Just my thoughts and question to the
group....r</SPAN><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>espectfully
submitted,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Chris</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>(as a CFII, airshow nut and
pattern guy and whatever other credibility I can throw in:)
)</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Ed Miller<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004
7:11 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here
last year too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm
about to say will at the very least be controversial. That's fine with
me as I think we need to think outside the box more often. My wife
enjoys watching figure skating. Being the "supportive spouse",
on occasion I will watch for a bit with her. It seems in figure
skating, the multiple rotation jumps, triples and even quadruple
rotation variations is where all the judging ( and viewing )
emphasis is placed in a skaters routine. It also seems the
judging is focused on 2 things, the entry to the jump and "sticking"
the landing. Frankly, those that say they can see every element of the
skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens too fast.
I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days I could pick up
the stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph. I'll
admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick up
all the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in real time ( we
all can when they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was
introduced into precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had
the same problems judging snaps as professional figure skating judges
have judging triple toe loops. I have watched ( and learned some )
from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and Pappas, yet, when in the
judges chair I look for departure in pitch ( entry ) and "the landing
" of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me, we've introduced snaps into
precision aerobatics to separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers
like me from the gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde,
etc. but in fact what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging
criteria. These talented flyers will find the setup and stick
movements to present a maneuver such that it defies the laws of
gravity. However, most of us are only humans and as judges, only judge
what can we realistically see and honestly assess in a snap roll. Most
all snap rolls I've seen done and performed rotate at such a speed
that again, the exit is the focus. Once in awhile you can pick up the
obvious aileron roll exit. There are many more elements of a snap roll
besides entry and exit yet as I read/delete/read/delete, etc. the
discussion we are having here, it boils down to entry and exit
positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in opposite directions.
It is a thing of beauty when done properly takes a lot of time
to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap rolls, has many
more places for the pilot to screw up that are EASILY VISIBLE to
the judges besides the entry and exit points. That's precision
aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern was always smooth and graceful until
someone decided as the FAI does, so must the AMA. Some will say it's
progress, new maneuvers, it's just raising the bar to let the cream
rise to the top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the cream.
Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.</DIV>
<DIV>Ed M.</DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seefo@san.rr.com href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">Doug
Cronkhite</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rules for
family 9.9 are as follows:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>"Snap rolls
represent one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is primarily
due to two factors: (1) the "snapping" characteristics of different
types of aircraft are unique; and (2), snap rolls are a high energy
maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps happen so fast, in fact,
that is is virtually impossible for a judge to determine the exact
order in which events occur, especially at the beginning of the
snap. There are no criteria, therefore, for seeing nose and wing
movement initiated at the same time as with the other autorotation
family, Spins."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rest of
the paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the complete
revolutions and so forth but there is no criteria whatsoever for
line displacement. This would be impossible to deal with actually
since aircraft snap so differently from one type to another. A top
level unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or Sukhoi displaces very
little, but people flying lower classes in Decathlons, Clipped Wing
Cubs and so forth displace a great deal in a snap. There's just no
way to fairly judge with a single standard across all aircraft
types.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday,
December 29, 2004 1:15 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>Thanks Doug,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>You don't happen to have the
piece of text in a form that could be pasted into this forum, do
ya'?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Doug Cronkhite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December
29, 2004 4:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004>No track
downgrade Dean. Since a snap roll is a yaw induced maneuver (or
should be at least) it's nigh-impossible to actually snap the
airplane and not displace the line a little. Especially when you
consider the low weight and inertia of our airplanes as compared
to full scale.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
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