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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I just posted this <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2483222/anchors_2483222/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2483222">http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2483222/anchors_2483222/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2483222</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>on RCU to make it open to more
folks!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=roho2@rcpattern.com href="mailto:roho2@rcpattern.com">Ed Hartley</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:54
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Hi Mr. Bob,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This time your wish happens to be our command! <FONT
size=4>Tony Stillman gave me permission to put this question in a poll on the
NSRCA site. The link is on the opening page.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><STRONG>"Should the progression of classes
within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to prepare a person for the FAI
class?"</STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>A couple of words of netiquette! Please only vote once. If
you don't compete in pattern please don't vote.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Thanks,<BR>Ed Hartley<BR><A
href="mailto:roho2@rcpattern.com">roho2@rcpattern.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcaerobob@cox.net href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">Bob
Pastorello</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:25
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave, as always, thoughtful
input....thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I, for one, (and perhaps the
ONLY one) would like to know pure and simple from the majority of folks
playing AMA pattern....a yes or a no to this question...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> <STRONG>"Should the
progression of classes within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to
prepare a person for the FAI class?"</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would like to have this question put to all
pattern fliers, and let the answer shape the design of our sequences.
Period.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> (I know this is a good
example of " be careful what you ask for ", but has it ever been
asked??)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004
9:48 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>A slight modification to the definition of a good pattern maneuver -
"Easy to fly, Hard to perfect, and easy to judge".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To me, judging at the most fundamental levels should really consist
of 2 aspects -</DIV>
<DIV>1) Was the correct maneuver flown?</DIV>
<DIV>2) What downgrades should be applied based on an analysis
of each element/component of the maneuver?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The idea here is that all manuevers in all classes are composed of
distinct elements, to which end if a individual is capable of judging
lines, radii, roll rates, angles, centering, etc., they should be able to
do so for any class for which they have memorized the sequence. Good
judging is about judging the elements, not the overall impression of a
manuever.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A different approach to judging is to develop a list specifically
stating downgrades for every possible error in every maneuver and then
commit to memory all of the the downgrades and hope the list is complete
(and it never will be). The list of specific maneuver downgrades
would be far longer than the list of elements, which can be applied to
every maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If a particular manuever or element is too difficult to judge, then
it is that way for all classes. If "we" chose to remove snaps from
the sequences, it would only be from the AMA sequences (I doubt it would
ever happen in FAI), creating a distinct difference between AMA and FAI,
which is against the recent trend to harmonize AMA and FAI to the extent
that is practicable. BTW - the "ideal" airplane design and setup
changes pretty dramatically if snaps are not part of the sequence - same
thing can be said to a lesser extent if the combined roll/loop manuevers
are absent.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With regard to what individuals / classes might want to see in
"their" schedule, some level of structure/planning/cohesiveness needs to
be part of the plan. Another debate for the ages has always been
which jump between classes is too large, too small, where the
bigger jumps should be, etc. Anyone who has been a part of
developing a schedule (or a whole set of schedules) knows how
difficult it is to assemble a single sequence with the goals of
being easy to fly, hard to perfect, and easy to judge - not to
mention having a balance of different manuevers that present
nicely and are a part of an integrated set of sequences that
teach/stress specific aspects of piloting, setup, trimming, etc in a
progressive manner. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>Bob:<BR>I remember being told that a
good pattern maneuver is "hard to do, easy to judge." While I,
too, enjoy doing snaps, this discussion has made me wonder if there is
any place for them in pattern. And, I am beginning to backpedal
(because I admittedly like them) and am wondering if there is any place
for them at all except in, possibly, FAI. And even there, the only
reason for them would be the mandate by the international
body. Inasmuch as I have no control over this issue, I'm just
musing.<BR><BR>Bill Glaze<BR><BR>Bob Pastorello wrote:
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<DIV>That is an excellent point, Chris. And your modesty to not
add "Intermediate National Champion" to your credentials is
noted.</DIV>
<DIV> The issue of a virtually-uncontrollable
maneuver EXCEPT for entry and exit, does bring a valid question about
it's place in our game. I think Ed Miller mentioned (sorry if
wrong) that longer-duration maneuvers with more easily-visible
segments have their OWN level of difficulty.</DIV>
<DIV> In '99, when I was working on the Rules
Committee, and we were designing new sequences one of the suggestions
in Masters was a Center maneuver, a square loop with 2/4 on U/D, 1/2
on horizontal legs. We were TRASHED for even suggesting such a
thing!!!</DIV>
<DIV> The reason I mention that is to consider
difficulty and pilot challenge, wouldn't most of us agree that the
square loop I describe would be more easily judged, and more
challenging for the majority of pilots than the downline SINGLE snap
we have in '05 ???</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since we're in a rules cycle year, maybe this is a good time to
rethink the "required elements" of every class, and look more for
"what do guys WANT to have in the sequence?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Great thread starter, Chris.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net/">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White,
Chris</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:49 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap
rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Please excuse me if I'm
repeating, or committing a "faux pas" ( I think I spelled that
right:) ) ....but I am really interested in hearing opinions to the
following:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>1) Do snap rolls add or detract
from the legitimacy of judging precision aerobatic pilots
capabilities?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>2) Do snap rolls add to the
credibility of precision aerobatics?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I'm new to the game, but a
"stalled" maneuver is a maneuver that is not "flown on the wing"
. An overwhelming percentage of the other maneuver
segments in our patterns are flown on the wing and are able to
be judged accurately and with a minimum of "impression"
influence. Since the Snap Roll it is not "flown" through
it is not fully controlled....lack of control indicates somewhat of
a wildcard that penalizes capable pilots experiencing a "bad"
maneuver. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I have seen many good snap rolls
in competition, some done by great pilots, some by new guys.....my
question is: Should there be a "wild card" allowance? Is
anyone capable of flying consistent snap rolls that are consistently
judgeable to clear and concise requirements? I believe
I'm hearing an overwhelming "NO". If the answer is no, then
maybe they should be removed.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I fly RC pattern because in my
opinion it is more graceful and precise in appearance as compared to
IMAC.... not that I don't respect IMAC pilots capabilities and enjoy
the show. But, I s</SPAN><SPAN
class=702442214-30122004>ometimes I wonder how "Snap Rolls" fit into
RC Pattern....and it sounds as if I'm not the only one.
(I like to see snaps....I just feel there are variables beyond the
pilots control which penalize inconsistently) I think a pilot
should be judged on control....not inertial physics. (is that a real
term????:) )</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Just my thoughts and question to
the group....r</SPAN><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>espectfully
submitted,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Chris</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>(as a CFII, airshow nut and
pattern guy and whatever other credibility I can throw in:)
)</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Ed Miller<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29,
2004 7:11 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here
last year too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what
I'm about to say will at the very least be controversial. That's
fine with me as I think we need to think outside the box more
often. My wife enjoys watching figure skating. Being the
"supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch for a bit with
her. It seems in figure skating, the multiple rotation jumps,
triples and even quadruple rotation variations is where
all the judging ( and viewing ) emphasis is placed in a
skaters routine. It also seems the judging is focused on 2 things,
the entry to the jump and "sticking" the landing. Frankly, those
that say they can see every element of the skaters rotation are,
IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens too fast. I have better
eyesight than most, in my younger days I could pick up the
stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph. I'll
admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick
up all the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in real time
( we all can when they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap
roll was introduced into precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO,
we have had the same problems judging snaps as professional figure
skating judges have judging triple toe loops. I have watched ( and
learned some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and
Pappas, yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in
pitch ( entry ) and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So,
to me, we've introduced snaps into precision aerobatics to
separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers like me from the
gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but in
fact what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging criteria.
These talented flyers will find the setup and stick movements to
present a maneuver such that it defies the laws of gravity.
However, most of us are only humans and as judges, only judge what
can we realistically see and honestly assess in a snap roll. Most
all snap rolls I've seen done and performed rotate at such a speed
that again, the exit is the focus. Once in awhile you can pick up
the obvious aileron roll exit. There are many more elements of a
snap roll besides entry and exit yet as I read/delete/read/delete,
etc. the discussion we are having here, it boils down to entry and
exit positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in opposite
directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly takes
a lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap
rolls, has many more places for the pilot to screw up
that are EASILY VISIBLE to the judges besides the entry and
exit points. That's precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern was
always smooth and graceful until someone decided as the FAI does,
so must the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new maneuvers, it's
just raising the bar to let the cream rise to the top. I'm on the
side that the bar has sunk into the cream. Maybe the some of the
lost NSRCA members felt similarly.</DIV>
<DIV>Ed M.</DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seefo@san.rr.com href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">Doug
Cronkhite</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rules
for family 9.9 are as follows:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>"Snap
rolls represent one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is
primarily due to two factors: (1) the "snapping" characteristics
of different types of aircraft are unique; and (2), snap rolls
are a high energy maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps happen
so fast, in fact, that is is virtually impossible for a judge to
determine the exact order in which events occur, especially at
the beginning of the snap. There are no criteria, therefore, for
seeing nose and wing movement initiated at the same time as with
the other autorotation family, Spins."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rest
of the paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the
complete revolutions and so forth but there is no criteria
whatsoever for line displacement. This would be impossible to
deal with actually since aircraft snap so differently from one
type to another. A top level unlimited airplane like an Edge,
Cap, or Sukhoi displaces very little, but people flying lower
classes in Decathlons, Clipped Wing Cubs and so forth displace a
great deal in a snap. There's just no way to fairly judge with a
single standard across all aircraft types.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday,
December 29, 2004 1:15 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>Thanks Doug,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>You don't happen to have
the piece of text in a form that could be pasted into this
forum, do ya'?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman"><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Doug Cronkhite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday,
December 29, 2004 4:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004>No
track downgrade Dean. Since a snap roll is a yaw induced
maneuver (or should be at least) it's nigh-impossible to
actually snap the airplane and not displace the line a
little. Especially when you consider the low weight and
inertia of our airplanes as compared to full
scale.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
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