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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with you, Keith. Sometimes we all act
like we're artists and other times we act like engineers. There is not one
definitive and precise description that will work. Therefore we should
widen our tolerance to allow some differences with no downgrade. Snaps
look slightly different in different attitudes (upline, downline, in a loop) so
any working definition must account for this. As honest as pattern planes
are, there are differences in how planes snap due to design differences (wing
area, tail moment, etc.). I believe that there must be some allowance for
differences before we start downgrading. Those that want to reward the guy
who translated 1/4 wingspan over the person that translated 1/2 wingspan are
applying their judging powers unfairly, in my opinion. Yes, one may look a
bit better, but that doesn't necessarily mean he should be rewarded. Now
if both pilots flew the same plane in the same wind, then we could compare, but
since we can't we shouldn't. There are plenty of judge-able criteria that
fit the objective manuver description to provide opportunity for downgrades:
track change, exit heading, amount of rotation, was there a break, tail cone,
autorotation for the full rotation, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> As for the guy with the switch: a
switch does not obey your normal throws or expo. As Earl said before,
getting the surfaces to move very quickly to the needed (larger) deflection
points can sometimes overcome the sequencing need.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithb@comcast.net href="mailto:tkeithb@comcast.net">Keith Black</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: snap displacement</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After this same discussion was held prior to last
season I started watching snaps more closely and trying to see the initial
break. I also experimented with my own snaps and hitting elevator first. Doing
this is not easy and really makes it difficult to make the snap pretty, but
hey, that's the challenge right?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Then I saw someone whose snaps looked really good
to me (name will go unmentioned). So I looked closer... was there a break
from elevator first? Uh, hard to tell, it happens so quickly, but
definitely not axial, and definitely not a barrel roll and slight offset.
Looked like a pretty good snap to me. After the snap the heading remained the
same, but offset. I couldn't see much to downgrade for and it sure as HECK
wasn't a zero...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now the interesting thing. I spoke to the pilot
and found out that he was using a snap switch! But wait, all the gurus
on the mailing list say you have to input elevator first... Should I now
change my opinion of his snaps because I know what controls he's
using?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Maybe the initial break is being over-emphasized,
maybe not. At some point in time someone tried to put into words
the physical action of a snap, not easy to do, and now we're dissecting
their choice of words to decide the "definitive" snap. Who's to say that
the author of the description described the snap well? One slight seemingly
minor verb change could completely change the way we interpret a snap. What
came first, the snap or the description? It's kind of funny that most people
participating in this discussion would question any and everything any and
everyone else may "say", but if it's written down it's the gospel.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What's my point? Just sharing my
thoughts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcaerobob@cox.net href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">Bob
Pastorello</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">NSRCA</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 5:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: snap displacement</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony, I think you've just made a case for
"impresion judging", using the rule-book downgrades to make the "big"
differences, then the "impression" (you may use the word "presentation"
[same thing]) makes the balance of the points.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Or am I missing something about how we should
apply "presentation" to this particular maneuver?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tony@radiosouthrc.com
href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">tony@radiosouthrc.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004
4:27 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: snap displacement</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith:<BR><BR>Yes, you are correct about the
"degree" downgrade. I also agree that the pilot that does the "most
clean looking snap" will get the better score, no matter what you use as a
downgrade base.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony Stillman<BR>Radio South<BR>3702 N. Pace Blvd.<BR>Pensacola, FL
32505<BR>1-800-962-7802<BR><A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com">www.radiosouthrc.com</A></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithb@comcast.net href="mailto:tkeithb@comcast.net">Keith
Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004
10:52 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: snap
displacement</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony, you can't measure displacement in
degrees. Heading would be measured in degrees, but displacement would be
measured in inches or feet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The list has had this conversation before
and the conclusion was that there should be no downgrade for
displacement as long as the heading/track remains the same. That being
said, I would think that if someone does a snap that jumps way over and
another pilot does one that clearly snaps but displaces less that the
second pilot should be rewarded for a more clean looking
snap.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tony@radiosouthrc.com
href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">tony@radiosouthrc.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:Discussion@Nsrca.Org">Discussion@Nsrca.Org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29,
2004 8:41 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> snap displacement</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have seen many full-scale pilots do
snaps without any noticeable displacement. I have also seen
these same pilots do poor ones that did displace. I think you
must downgrade it some (1 point per 15 deg).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony Stillman<BR>Radio South<BR>3702 N.
Pace Blvd.<BR>Pensacola, FL 32505<BR>1-800-962-7802<BR><A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com">www.radiosouthrc.com</A></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>