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<DIV><FONT size=4>Hi Mr. Bob,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This time your wish happens to be our command! <FONT
size=4>Tony Stillman gave me permission to put this question in a poll on the
NSRCA site. The link is on the opening page.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><STRONG>"Should the progression of classes
within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to prepare a person for the FAI
class?"</STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>A couple of words of netiquette! Please only vote once. If you
don't compete in pattern please don't vote.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Thanks,<BR>Ed Hartley<BR><A
href="mailto:roho2@rcpattern.com">roho2@rcpattern.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcaerobob@cox.net href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">Bob Pastorello</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:25
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave, as always, thoughtful
input....thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I, for one, (and perhaps the
ONLY one) would like to know pure and simple from the majority of folks
playing AMA pattern....a yes or a no to this question...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> <STRONG>"Should the
progression of classes within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to prepare
a person for the FAI class?"</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would like to have this question put to all
pattern fliers, and let the answer shape the design of our sequences.
Period.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> (I know this is a good example
of " be careful what you ask for ", but has it ever been asked??)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:48
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>A slight modification to the definition of a good pattern maneuver -
"Easy to fly, Hard to perfect, and easy to judge".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To me, judging at the most fundamental levels should really consist of
2 aspects -</DIV>
<DIV>1) Was the correct maneuver flown?</DIV>
<DIV>2) What downgrades should be applied based on an analysis of
each element/component of the maneuver?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The idea here is that all manuevers in all classes are composed of
distinct elements, to which end if a individual is capable of judging lines,
radii, roll rates, angles, centering, etc., they should be able to do so for
any class for which they have memorized the sequence. Good judging is
about judging the elements, not the overall impression of a manuever.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A different approach to judging is to develop a list specifically
stating downgrades for every possible error in every maneuver and then
commit to memory all of the the downgrades and hope the list is complete
(and it never will be). The list of specific maneuver downgrades would
be far longer than the list of elements, which can be applied to every
maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If a particular manuever or element is too difficult to judge, then it
is that way for all classes. If "we" chose to remove snaps from the
sequences, it would only be from the AMA sequences (I doubt it would ever
happen in FAI), creating a distinct difference between AMA and FAI, which is
against the recent trend to harmonize AMA and FAI to the extent that is
practicable. BTW - the "ideal" airplane design and setup changes
pretty dramatically if snaps are not part of the sequence - same thing can
be said to a lesser extent if the combined roll/loop manuevers are
absent.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With regard to what individuals / classes might want to see in "their"
schedule, some level of structure/planning/cohesiveness needs to be part of
the plan. Another debate for the ages has always been which jump
between classes is too large, too small, where the bigger jumps
should be, etc. Anyone who has been a part of developing
a schedule (or a whole set of schedules) knows how difficult it
is to assemble a single sequence with the goals of being easy to
fly, hard to perfect, and easy to judge - not to mention having a
balance of different manuevers that present nicely and are a part
of an integrated set of sequences that teach/stress specific aspects of
piloting, setup, trimming, etc in a progressive manner. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>Bob:<BR>I remember being told that a
good pattern maneuver is "hard to do, easy to judge." While I, too,
enjoy doing snaps, this discussion has made me wonder if there is any
place for them in pattern. And, I am beginning to backpedal (because
I admittedly like them) and am wondering if there is any place for them at
all except in, possibly, FAI. And even there, the only reason for
them would be the mandate by the international body. Inasmuch
as I have no control over this issue, I'm just musing.<BR><BR>Bill
Glaze<BR><BR>Bob Pastorello wrote:
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<DIV>That is an excellent point, Chris. And your modesty to not
add "Intermediate National Champion" to your credentials is noted.</DIV>
<DIV> The issue of a virtually-uncontrollable maneuver
EXCEPT for entry and exit, does bring a valid question about it's place
in our game. I think Ed Miller mentioned (sorry if wrong) that
longer-duration maneuvers with more easily-visible segments have their
OWN level of difficulty.</DIV>
<DIV> In '99, when I was working on the Rules
Committee, and we were designing new sequences one of the suggestions in
Masters was a Center maneuver, a square loop with 2/4 on U/D, 1/2 on
horizontal legs. We were TRASHED for even suggesting such a
thing!!!</DIV>
<DIV> The reason I mention that is to consider
difficulty and pilot challenge, wouldn't most of us agree that the
square loop I describe would be more easily judged, and more challenging
for the majority of pilots than the downline SINGLE snap we have in '05
???</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since we're in a rules cycle year, maybe this is a good time to
rethink the "required elements" of every class, and look more for "what
do guys WANT to have in the sequence?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Great thread starter, Chris.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net/">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White,
Chris</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:49 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls
discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Please excuse me if I'm repeating,
or committing a "faux pas" ( I think I spelled that right:) ) ....but
I am really interested in hearing opinions to the
following:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>1) Do snap rolls add or detract
from the legitimacy of judging precision aerobatic pilots
capabilities?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>2) Do snap rolls add to the
credibility of precision aerobatics?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I'm new to the game, but a
"stalled" maneuver is a maneuver that is not "flown on the wing"
. An overwhelming percentage of the other maneuver
segments in our patterns are flown on the wing and are able to be
judged accurately and with a minimum of "impression" influence.
Since the Snap Roll it is not "flown" through it is not fully
controlled....lack of control indicates somewhat of a wildcard that
penalizes capable pilots experiencing a "bad" maneuver.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I have seen many good snap rolls
in competition, some done by great pilots, some by new guys.....my
question is: Should there be a "wild card" allowance? Is anyone
capable of flying consistent snap rolls that are consistently
judgeable to clear and concise requirements? I believe I'm
hearing an overwhelming "NO". If the answer is no, then maybe
they should be removed.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>I fly RC pattern because in my
opinion it is more graceful and precise in appearance as compared to
IMAC.... not that I don't respect IMAC pilots capabilities and enjoy
the show. But, I s</SPAN><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>ometimes
I wonder how "Snap Rolls" fit into RC Pattern....and it sounds as if
I'm not the only one. (I like to see snaps....I just feel
there are variables beyond the pilots control which penalize
inconsistently) I think a pilot should be judged on
control....not inertial physics. (is that a real term????:)
)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Just my thoughts and question to
the group....r</SPAN><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>espectfully
submitted,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>Chris</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=702442214-30122004>(as a CFII, airshow nut and
pattern guy and whatever other credibility I can throw in:)
)</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Ed Miller<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004
7:11 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here
last year too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm
about to say will at the very least be controversial. That's fine
with me as I think we need to think outside the box more often. My
wife enjoys watching figure skating. Being the "supportive spouse",
on occasion I will watch for a bit with her. It seems in figure
skating, the multiple rotation jumps, triples and even quadruple
rotation variations is where all the judging ( and viewing
) emphasis is placed in a skaters routine. It also seems the
judging is focused on 2 things, the entry to the jump and "sticking"
the landing. Frankly, those that say they can see every element of
the skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens too
fast. I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days I could
pick up the stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at
90mph. I'll admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly
cannot pick up all the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in
real time ( we all can when they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since
the snap roll was introduced into precision aerobatics, an oxymoron
IMHO, we have had the same problems judging snaps as professional
figure skating judges have judging triple toe loops. I have watched
( and learned some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and
Pappas, yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in pitch
( entry ) and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me,
we've introduced snaps into precision aerobatics to separate the
wanna be pattern jockey hackers like me from the gifted, talented
folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but in fact what we've done
is actually dumbed down our judging criteria. These talented flyers
will find the setup and stick movements to present a maneuver such
that it defies the laws of gravity. However, most of us are only
humans and as judges, only judge what can we realistically see and
honestly assess in a snap roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done
and performed rotate at such a speed that again, the exit is the
focus. Once in awhile you can pick up the obvious aileron roll exit.
There are many more elements of a snap roll besides entry and exit
yet as I read/delete/read/delete, etc. the discussion we are having
here, it boils down to entry and exit positions. The ex-masters
maneuver of 2 rolls in opposite directions. It is a thing of beauty
when done properly takes a lot of time to perform, especially
compared to our beloved snap rolls, has many more places for the
pilot to screw up that are EASILY VISIBLE to the judges besides
the entry and exit points. That's precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA
pattern was always smooth and graceful until someone decided as the
FAI does, so must the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new
maneuvers, it's just raising the bar to let the cream rise to the
top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the cream. Maybe the
some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.</DIV>
<DIV>Ed M.</DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seefo@san.rr.com href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">Doug
Cronkhite</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rules
for family 9.9 are as follows:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>"Snap rolls
represent one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is
primarily due to two factors: (1) the "snapping" characteristics
of different types of aircraft are unique; and (2), snap rolls are
a high energy maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps happen so
fast, in fact, that is is virtually impossible for a judge to
determine the exact order in which events occur, especially at the
beginning of the snap. There are no criteria, therefore, for
seeing nose and wing movement initiated at the same time as with
the other autorotation family, Spins."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rest of
the paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the
complete revolutions and so forth but there is no criteria
whatsoever for line displacement. This would be impossible to deal
with actually since aircraft snap so differently from one type to
another. A top level unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or
Sukhoi displaces very little, but people flying lower classes in
Decathlons, Clipped Wing Cubs and so forth displace a great deal
in a snap. There's just no way to fairly judge with a single
standard across all aircraft types.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday,
December 29, 2004 1:15 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>Thanks Doug,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>You don't happen to have the
piece of text in a form that could be pasted into this forum, do
ya'?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman"><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Doug Cronkhite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday,
December 29, 2004 4:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004>No
track downgrade Dean. Since a snap roll is a yaw induced
maneuver (or should be at least) it's nigh-impossible to
actually snap the airplane and not displace the line a little.
Especially when you consider the low weight and inertia of our
airplanes as compared to full scale.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
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