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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcpattern@comcast.net href="mailto:rcpattern@comcast.net">Archie
Stafford</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:49
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Snap Rolls.....are they
legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do not necessarily
think they should be setup to prepare someone for FAI, however I do think they
need to progress and become more difficult every rule change
cycle, </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">........................................................</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> In masters
maybe, watch the total K factors and make sure the progression flows from the
lowest class to the highest.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">............................</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Think about this a
minute, we've just gotten the latest batch of lower class fliers
moving up into a harder class and you want to make the next class even harder
than it was before? Doesn't make sense to me. :)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">more Advanced and
Masters than Sportsman and Intermediate.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>I do think the schedules are more complicated, but I remember reading a
few years ago in the K-Factor, I believe it was Frank Granelli, forgive me if
I am wrong about how today’s Advanced pilot fly many of the same maneuvers
that were frown on a world stage in the late 70’s and early 80’s.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do believe
Sportsman should remain very basic that any capable sport airplane should be
able to fly the maneuvers and fly them well, and the same for
intermediate.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think the only
maneuvers that sport planes have a problem with in those classes are the
vertical maneuvers from a pure lack of power.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There are not many 40 sized designs
with a good .46 on the front that can do point rolls on an upline, I’m sure
there are exceptions, but for the most part your average .40 sized Extra with
a .46 is going to run out of energy near the top of any extended vertical
climb.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think most of the
people in the upper classes enjoy the challenge.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And even the new maneuvers are not
really that new, they are just a modification of something that has been done
in the past.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The new Avalanche in
masters is a perfect example. It is not that much more difficult than a
standard avalanche, yes it takes some more practice and changes in how you
perform the snap, but the fact that it happens at the bottom of the loop
instead of the top makes a big difference.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A few years ago at
the nats, the first year in masters with the 1 ½ snap down, most of the pilots
had major problems with this maneuver, but 3 years later after flying it and
practicing it more and understanding how to perform the maneuvers most of the
people I saw flying Masters this year at the NATS, no matter where they
finished were reasonably comfortable with this maneuver and most of the ones
that did have problems were flying it correctly, but looked more like the
plane wasn’t setup correctly, using too much rudder, or aileron or whatever,
but the pilots were comfortable with the maneuver.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I believe the first
two classes should definitely be reasonable for a good sport airplane to fly
the sequences, then a somewhat larger jump to Advanced, because lets be
honest.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>With the number of
reasonable priced 2M designs out today, if someone sticks with it until
Advanced then they are probably going to purchase a true “pattern” plane.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Even if it is a 2 year old RTF plane
from another pilot who has purchased a new airplane.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do not think that
Masters should prepare someone for FAI specifically, but it should definitely
be the hardest class of AMA pattern.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Masters flows into
FAI very well if you want it to or not.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Most of what we do will always follow
what FAI does.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It only makes
sense for the AMA pattern rules to follow what FAI does in terms of aircraft
and powerplants allowed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This
does not mean that we have to follow exactly what they do for maneuver
choice.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think even snap rolls
can be flown and flown well consistently, just like spins, the problem we have
now is no one knows what everyone is looking for.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Some judges want to see more break
than others, some want them slower, when neither of these is a true criteria.
The key is to make sure everyone looks for the same things and pilots know
exactly how to perform the maneuvers. If it is written that you must show a 15
degree break, then put it in there for the pilots to know what to fly.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They can be flown anyway that we want
to fly them, but the key is to make sure everyone is looking to fly them the
same way.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Even if it means at the
NATS or some judging seminar having someone fly a snap roll and then saying
“OK, this is a snap, whether judge A thinks so or not, this is what we are
calling a snap roll, you may not agree with it, but by definition, this is
what we are saying is a snap roll.”<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>To eventually get everyone on the same page as to what to look
for.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Arch<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Pastorello<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:26
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls
discussion</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave, as always, thoughtful
input....thanks!</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> I, for one,
(and perhaps the ONLY one) would like to know pure and simple from the
majority of folks playing AMA pattern....a yes or a no to this
question...</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Should the
progression of classes within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to prepare
a person for the FAI
class?"</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would like to have this question
put to all pattern fliers, and let the answer shape the design of our
sequences. Period.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> (I know this is
a good example of " be careful what you ask for ", but has it ever been
asked??)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>