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<DIV>Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here last year
too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm about to say will at
the very least be controversial. That's fine with me as I think we need to think
outside the box more often. My wife enjoys watching figure skating. Being the
"supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch for a bit with her. It seems
in figure skating, the multiple rotation jumps, triples and even quadruple
rotation variations is where all the judging ( and viewing ) emphasis
is placed in a skaters routine. It also seems the judging is focused on 2
things, the entry to the jump and "sticking" the landing. Frankly, those that
say they can see every element of the skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank.
It plain happens too fast. I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days
I could pick up the stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph.
I'll admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick up all
the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in real time ( we all can when
they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was introduced into
precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had the same problems judging
snaps as professional figure skating judges have judging triple toe loops. I
have watched ( and learned some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and
Pappas, yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in pitch ( entry )
and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me, we've introduced snaps
into precision aerobatics to separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers like
me from the gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but in fact
what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging criteria. These talented
flyers will find the setup and stick movements to present a maneuver such that
it defies the laws of gravity. However, most of us are only humans and as
judges, only judge what can we realistically see and honestly assess in a snap
roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done and performed rotate at such a speed
that again, the exit is the focus. Once in awhile you can pick up the obvious
aileron roll exit. There are many more elements of a snap roll besides entry and
exit yet as I read/delete/read/delete, etc. the discussion we are having here,
it boils down to entry and exit positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in
opposite directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly takes a
lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap rolls, has many
more places for the pilot to screw up that are EASILY VISIBLE to the judges
besides the entry and exit points. That's precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern
was always smooth and graceful until someone decided as the FAI does, so must
the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new maneuvers, it's just raising the bar
to let the cream rise to the top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the
cream. Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.</DIV>
<DIV>Ed M.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=seefo@san.rr.com href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">Doug Cronkhite</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Displacement during snap
rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rules for family
9.9 are as follows:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>"Snap rolls represent
one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is primarily due to two factors:
(1) the "snapping" characteristics of different types of aircraft are unique;
and (2), snap rolls are a high energy maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps
happen so fast, in fact, that is is virtually impossible for a judge to
determine the exact order in which events occur, especially at the beginning
of the snap. There are no criteria, therefore, for seeing nose and wing
movement initiated at the same time as with the other autorotation family,
Spins."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>The rest of the
paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the complete revolutions
and so forth but there is no criteria whatsoever for line displacement. This
would be impossible to deal with actually since aircraft snap so differently
from one type to another. A top level unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or
Sukhoi displaces very little, but people flying lower classes in Decathlons,
Clipped Wing Cubs and so forth displace a great deal in a snap. There's just
no way to fairly judge with a single standard across all aircraft
types.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=121302721-29122004></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
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<FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dean
Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:15 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Displacement during snap rolls
(was Why is it so quiet?)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>Thanks Doug,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=314201421-29122004>You don't happen to have the piece of
text in a form that could be pasted into this forum, do ya'?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Doug Cronkhite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2004
4:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
quiet?)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004>No track downgrade
Dean. Since a snap roll is a yaw induced maneuver (or should be at least)
it's nigh-impossible to actually snap the airplane and not displace the
line a little. Especially when you consider the low weight and inertia of
our airplanes as compared to full scale.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004>-Doug</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=871441121-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
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