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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bravo Vern and Bob!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pattern is about PRECISION.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Whether one practice flight or 1,000, the flyer
that is the most precise should be the winner in pattern. Even the best
pilots in the world fly more precisely when given the opportunity to
practice. Unknowns (and a "finals" schedule) were introduced in F3A
because it was very difficult to distinguish between the top pilots on a single
known schedule.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Personally, I have flown the unknowns in F3A in the
US in the NATs and Team Selection - and it is a lot of fun (for me).
And depending on your definition of "best pilot" - maybe the unknowns (and
finals schedule) they do more readily ferrett out the "best pilot" - but -
pattern is about the pilot who flies with the most precision - and depending on
your definition, the most precise pilot may not be the best pilot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since this topic is focused on unknowns (or
semi-unknowns) for the Masters final at the US NATs - if you think the top
pilots in the US NATs Masters finals are in-distinguishable, then you may think
unknowns would be beneficial in the finals - but realize that the precision of
the flying does decrease, the quality of judging does decrease, the logistics
become much more difficult, and the caller does become much more
important.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=verne@twmi.rr.com href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">Verne Koester</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 06, 2005 8:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Eric,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Well, okay, you pulled me out of the shadows. I'm dead
set against an unknown in the finals for a variety of reason. Bob Pastorello
just rattled off a bunch of them in another post so I'll try not to repeat
those. Most Masters pilots could do a credible job in FAI with practice. This
is not to say that a Masters finalist would likely be an FAI finalist because
I don't think they would. By the same token, I don't think we'd be at the
bottom of the heap, either. However, the one common thread I hear again and
again among Masters pilots is a lack of the time required to become
competitive with two separate schedules. In addition, there's a couple of big
differences between flying the finals and flying the prelims. In no particular
order, the judging is more consistent, there's no distraction from midair
close calls, there's more pressure and so on. Combined, these things can both
help and hurt the contestant with the main effect being that flying in the
finals is very different than flying in the prelims. Leave the unknowns and/or
finals schedules for those pilots that choose to fly in that environment and
that environment is FAI. I don't see any benefit in tinkering with something
that's not broken. If anything, it'll prevent those that don't have the
preparation time from showing up in the first place.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Verne Koester</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pattern4u@comcast.net href="mailto:pattern4u@comcast.net">Grow
Pattern</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:00
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: AMA MASTER'S
unknown?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Archie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
I am particularly interested in what you say because as a person who
actually attends the Nat's, you are therefore well positioned to
have and entertain new ideas. As a person who makes it to the finals you are
both experiential and a potential who would fly this stuff. You are more
than just a theorist. How do other ex-finalist think?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The subject heading says unknowns not
impossibles....The maneuvers would not (be intended to) be more
difficult. Just stringing them together would be difficult to sort the
finalists out...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,<BR><BR>Eric.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcpattern@comcast.net href="mailto:rcpattern@comcast.net">Archie
Stafford</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:47
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: AMA MASTER'S
unknown?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think you can
fly unknowns and also make them very precise and smooth. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Look at the FAI finals.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Other than the roller I think the
sequence flowed very well and the top pilots made it look like they had
been flying it for a long time.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Even if you used past sequences or rearranged the current sequence.
<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do not think
this makes it a “team” event with the caller. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Most pilots have the callers they
generally use and that person usually knows when the person they are
calling for likes to hear the next maneuver. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Also if you use maneuvers that have
been previously used or maneuvers that are reasonably well known then you
shouldn’t have a judging problem. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If this is going to be used at the
NATS finals, then the judging is usually reasonably good anyway. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I’m sure there will be varying
opinions on that, but for the most part judging in the finals is overall
very good. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The better pilots
are going to make an unknown sequence look smooth and precise no matter
how many times they have flown it. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think unknowns definitely help
you determine who the best pilot is. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Pastorello<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:40 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: AMA MASTER'S
unknown?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I guess since I never take a
position on anything, I should probably do so on this -- so -- here
'tis.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1. This is a genuine
yes/no POLL question of the MASTERS pilots only....and needs to be
carefully administered, IF the Board is interested in opening this
one.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2. If the POLL has at
least 2/3 majority, then the next question should be designed to find
out how crazy we (Masters) pilots are about having our scores judged by
JUDGES WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN THE SEQUENCE and
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">3. How crazy we are
about the totally-impossible-to-fairly-administer influence of the
"team". At this level of competitions (you guys are talking about
the NATS FINALS, for G---s sake!!!) I would be hard pressed to say it will
be "fair" to have the outcome determined by who had the best caller
(or the most effective team). Not everyone can do that... and
finally ....</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">4. MASTERS is supposed
to be the Top AMA class....as such, philosophically, I think it should be
the best - the VERY best - of precision, smoothness, and
gracefulness....</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">AND implementing an Unknown
turns all that back into "IMPRESSION"
judging....</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm not in favor of it;
won't be; won't try to persuade others to be; and believe wholeheartedly
that if a pilot is strongly committed to flying Unknowns that he go play
IMAC. Then fly "Pattern" for precision, practiced, smooth and
skillfully-executed "routines".</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA
46373<BR><A href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed
Deaver</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, January 06, 2005 3:54 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
AMA MASTER'S unknown?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Flying an Unknown truely does make it a 2 person
flight. I would still welcome the opportunity as the challange and
thrill(flying well or goofing up and trying to collect yourself to fly
the next manuever) is really great.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I don't know if it really identifies the callers
ability, as much as the teams ability. Another thought depends on
how much time is allowed to prepare
also.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">ed<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">rcaerobob@cox.net</SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Before I'd answer whether I wanted one or not,
I'd like to have an understanding of what, specifically, the unknown
in Masters would "reveal". If pattern is about precision piloting that
could be a different thing than an ability to have a good
caller....<BR><BR>Just my ignorant opinion.<BR><BR>Bob P.<BR>>
<BR>> From: "Grow Pattern" <BR><PATTERN4U@COMCAST.NET>> Date:
2005/01/06 Thu AM 11:25:48 EST<BR>> To:
<FLYINTEXAN@HOUSTON.RR.COM>, <BR>> <BR><DISCUSSION@NSRCA.ORG>>
Subject: AMA MASTER'S unknown?<BR>> <BR>> How does this list
feel about a Masters Nat's final that was different to <BR>> the
regular schedule. OR, even an unknown in the final to make it more
than <BR>> just three more of the same flown in the heats.<BR>>
<BR>> Regards,<BR>> <BR>>
Eric.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>