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<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I have
to agree with John here. I'm concerned that we keep making the entry-level
class too hard for the real newbie that we are trying to
hook.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I flew
my first contest 7 months after solo. This was back in about 1997 or so.
The individual manuevers were no easier, but you got to go out of the box pretty
frequently and get lined back up. For someone that isn't that skilled (people we
need to bring into the entry ranks to fill the pipe), after a couple maneuvers,
they get behind the airplane and are going into the next maneuver in trouble.
Leaving the box gave us the opportunity to calm down and get straightened
out.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If
your skills were better than that, start in Intermediate. Same message today to
those that think Sportsman is too easy. It should be really
easy!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Sportsman should be constructed so that regular club sport
flyers can come taste pattern with little or no practice when the local
club holds a meet with their 4 star 40's and Tiger 60's.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This
year, I tried to bring a couple of our yearling's into our local contest.
They just couldn't handle the continuity of it all, and both gave up. Oh we
could be elitist and say they should have practiced more and got better
airplanes, but is that really going to seed the pipe?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Maybe
what we need is another (non-rated?) entry class? Fun-pattern class or
something?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=258284804-09012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Pavlick<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: adding interest and complexity to
Sportsman ... again and again and <BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005>Yeah, I agree. It's harder than it looks but it
teaches the basics of all the higher level maneuvers without overwhelming a
newbie. It is too short. The biggest problem I had last year (other than
flying a 40 size plane and learning how to handle crosswind) is that there is
no "practice" time available. I know it's probably unnecessary for the higher
classes and definitely impractical due to time constraints, but maybe for
Sportsman what would be cool is to fly two sequences per round (one take off
and landing) and maybe just keep the score for the best one. This could be the
CD's option - no rule changes needed because it's already addressed in the
current rules (sort of). It might help a lot of guys improve a lot quicker - I
know it would have helped me. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005>As
far as the maneuvers go - the hardest ones are the stall turn, 2 loops and the
2 point roll. If you want to make it "harder" encourage guys to use top rudder
in the 2 point roll and even the full roll (slow it down). Although not
necessary (unlike elevator control in the 3 roll sequence), it is a skill
builder (or airplane destroyer) and it will add interest for someone who has
mastered the basics. The 2 loops are good because if there's crosswind, you'll
learn how to deal with it there. The stall turn has enough elements to make it
challenging. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005>The
problems with the Humpty with 1/2 roll up (or anything with 1/2 roll up)
are: </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005>1. A
slightly underpowered plane (i.e. entry level Sportsman) will have problems
making it to the top so the pull will be messy and screw up the down line
(believe me).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005>2.
An improperly trimmed airplane that's dragging a wing (aileron diff.) will
screw up the up line.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005>The
non rolling triangle loop might work, and it's good because of the long
inverted section at the top of the box (i.e. learn some rudder technique) BUT
an underpowered plane may have problems turning the first corner at the top
forcing an inverted line correction.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005> I'm working with a few people now who will be
flying Sportsman this season if all goes well. The first thing I had them do
was fly to the ends of the box and do 1/2 cuban turn arounds. I told them
to practice this until they could hold a straight and level flight path
between. THAT was harder than it looks for some of them, especially when there
was a crosswind. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005>Maybe you guys don't realize just how skilled you are
(Advanced, Masters, FAI). Please take it easy on us! It takes a while to build
the skills necessary to achieve that level of competency. I just transitioned
from Sportsman to Intermediate and it felt about right. It's quite a bit
harder, but not overwhelming. I'll struggle for a while, but I'll catch up
eventually. Just in time to get pushed into Advanced...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005>
<P><FONT size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A href="http://www.idseng.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.idseng.com</A><BR> </FONT>
</P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=160030818-08012005></SPAN><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=160030818-08012005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=160030818-08012005> </SPAN>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Keith
Black<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 07, 2005 12:59 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: adding interest and complexity to
Sportsman ... again and again and <BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Being not too far removed from Sportsman myself
I have to agree that the sportsman pattern is about right in difficulty,
just a little short unless it's flown twice. Without flying it twice the
sportsman guys really get the short end of the stick. If you make it any
more difficult then it will be too hard for the newbie. Even with the
current sportsman pattern when I began I sometimes REALLY needed the box
exits, especially after the two loops. And as far as two rolls go, that's
WAY too difficult for sportsman. That maneuver scared the bejeepers out of
for the longest time in Intermediate (especially when I lost track of my
rolls, with the sun in my face, over the trees in Temple!). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One good thing about the current sportsman
pattern is it's easier to get new guys to consider trying the pattern when
they see how "simple" it is. Of course, they quickly find out that even
though the maneuvers are simple it's not at all easy for the uninitiated
pattern flyer to keep the plane on track through the maneuvers. Then they
ALL say the same thing... "WOW! That's harder than it looks!".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think the Sportsman pattern is about right,
just a little short.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:57
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: adding interest and
complexity to Sportsman ... again and again and </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Hey George,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>When the wind blows, even a little bit, the present Sportsman
schedule overtaxes both the concentration and skill of the entry
level pilot.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>A certain amount of this is good, 'cause all real learning is
painful, but this is a trap that the event has fallen into at least four
times in my recollection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>We keep changing schedules to maintain interest, and that's
good.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>When we revise the schedules, we keep adding interest: that sounds
good, but what we really almost always ended up doing was adding a tiny
bit of complexity until ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>We have to add a new class to the all-important bottom of the
pyramid.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Want to know how many times it's happened? Once it was called
Novice, then we called it Pre-Novice, then the schedules all
changed,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>and we called it Novice again, then we changed the name to
Sportsman, and added Turnaround.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>I like the schedule Don proposes, but I'd rather have the Sportsmen
fly two short schedules with a "holy cow!, let me get back from the next
county." break between the schedules.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Some Sportsmen go without a breath for a whole schedule. Okay
that's a slight exageration.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>I have used the out-of-box time between those two schedules to
coach, calm, and teach the incoming pilots. It's terribly
useful.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Oh yes, 3 rolls is infinitely more useful for teaching "elevator
timing" than 2. You can fake it for 2, but the 3rd one requires that
the plane be under control after 2.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Hey Ron van Putte ... you out there?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Tell the man about the time the Earth shook in Lake
Charles!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>George Kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 06, 2005
2:37 PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [SPAM] Re:
[SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Annex proposal - development<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I
too find Don Ramsey's sequence very stimulating. <BR>Reminds me that I
have always felt that the poor guys in Sportsman sometimes appear to be
getting the short end of the stick regarding the schedule.Many contests
that I have attended have them flying the sequence twice because the
routine is so very short. I would like to see their schedule slightly
modified to give them a little longer sequence and a little additional
stimulation. <BR>I would propose something like the following.
<P>1.T.O.
U <BR>2.Free
Pass.
D <BR>3.Straight Flight
Out.
C
U <BR>4.Procedure
Turn.
T <BR>5.Straight Flight
Back.
C
D <BR>6.1/2 Reverse Cuban
Eight
T <BR>7.Immelman
Turn.
C
U <BR>8.Split
S.
T <BR>9.2
Loops.
C
U <BR>10.Exit The
Box.
U <BR>11.Enter The
Box.
D <BR>12.Non-Rolling Triangular
Loop
C
U <BR>13.Humpty Bump 1/2 roll
up
T <BR>14.One 2-Point
Roll
C
D <BR>15.1/2 Cuban
Eight.
T <BR>16.Non-Rolling
Cobra.
C
U <BR>17.Stall
Turn.
T <BR>18.2
Rolls.
C
D <BR>19.Exit The Box.
<BR>20.Landing.
C
U
<P>C= Center,T=Turnaround, U= Upwind, D=Downwind.
<P>My rationale is that this is the point that we need to encourage this
<BR>class of fliers to work on their down elevator timing by introducing
<BR>2 rolls.This shouldn't be too much for them to handle as they are
<BR>currently doing a 2 point roll. Also the 2 loops will sharpen their
<BR>precision by making them work harder at presentation placement.
<BR>The Procedure Turn will teach them something that will be required,
<BR>and the Humpty should present no major problems as they are already
<BR>doing a 1/2 Reverse Cuban.They should be learning the Stall Turn and
<BR>the Triangular Loop will further strengthen their centering
skills.There are <BR>seven maneuvers before taking a breather and seven
more to complete <BR>the sequence. <BR>Now these fellows can fly ONE
sequence like the rest of us and the <BR>time required should be no
longer than the time required to fly a double <BR>schedule.
<P>Sportsman pilots out there, let me know what you think. <BR>Georgie
<BR>P.S.I wonder if there are any Sportsman guys monitoring this
list?? <BR><SPAN class=288221420-06012005><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>