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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How were these numbers arrived at ?? Was testing
done and if so how ??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed M.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pattern4u@comcast.net href="mailto:pattern4u@comcast.net">Grow
Pattern</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:08
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Reverse av/RCU poll</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rick,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I
agreed with all of your note. I would add that, "<FONT color=#000080>A
snap is a snap is a snap", might vary according to where it is done in the
sky.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>I was recently educated about
g-forces. This is what I was told.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Flying straight and level it's 1 g
plus what ever you add with the snap.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>A 45 degrees going down its
less than 1 g.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>At top of loop almost no g, like in
an avalanche</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Vertical no g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2> At the bottom of the loop
even with the power off, it's at least 2 g's before you hit it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>So maybe
snaps put different loading on the plane depending upon where they
are done and how the plane is preloaded in the first place?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>The real point is, please check
your wing-tubes for movement on a periodic basis. Just put the tube in a
wing-panel and see if it moves around like a paint-brush in a
pot!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Eric.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>P.S. I've never really seen a
vertical down-line snap really snap.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">Lance
Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 10, 2005 11:54
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Reverse av/RCU poll</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rick,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Awesome. Straight to the heart. I
laughed out loud at your ending and my wife said, "C'mon, there's nothing
about airplanes thats that funny!"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rickwallace45@hotmail.com
href="mailto:rickwallace45@hotmail.com">rick wallace</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 10, 2005 4:47
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Reverse av/RCU
poll</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’ve been
thinking a lot about this but hadn’t been writing much on this forum…
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Let’s see…
pattern planes and contests… </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
11 lb event weight limit… </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Many folks flying sub 10-lb planes … </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Guys building 10 ounce wing panels… (for reference, my Focus I ARF wings
came out of the box at 17ounces each) </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I wonder if there
might be a connection between these three facts / factors…
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Add to this that
there’s a renewed emphasis on flying – and scoring - REAL snaps – as
shown in the World champs 2003 and FAI Nats 2004 – so now we have to do –
and practice - REAL snaps -</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And now the
discussion is to delete snaps from ALL our sequences? </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This doesn’t add
up somehow… seems to me that … </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
- The maneuvers haven’t gotten nastier. A snap is a snap is a snap.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
- The 2005 Master’s schedule’s been around along time – proposed in 2002,
I think – there was LOTS of time for reflection between then and now.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- If
the planes can’t do the maneuvers, maybe it’s because they’ve gotten too
light. <gasp> Or we’ve temporarily forgotten how to build a plane to
do what it’s called on to do. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">BUT…
- If the current planes can’t do the maneuver (and I’m not convinced
that’s an issue), the fix shouldn’t be to dumb down the maneuvers, it
should be to fix the planes. There’s room in the 11# weight limit, and
techniques aplenty to do just that. Even for ARF wings. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Seems like pattern guys and our toys have always been on the cutting edge
of the aerobatics scene - -until now – are we losing that
position??? There are kids (of many ages) flying and hovering and
gyrating their little foamies and Funtanas and 32-1/2% Edges all over the
place – and even snapping them! I guess our expensive pattern planes are
just to good – and too fragile – to do the same maneuvers in a precision
manner??? </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Maybe the next
rules change should be a Depron pattern class… maybe with takeoffs
optional, and landings = a K5 (or maybe just an automatic 10 – oh yeah, I
forgot – we’re already there...). Maybe the hardest maneuver could
be a roll (we don’t want to overstress the airframes with high – stress
maneuvers like LOOPS – the plane might break if someone does too tight a
loop at full throttle.) </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But seriously,
folks – C'mon, guys -- this is supposed to be a sequence for MASTERS
pilots and associated equipment... <BR><BR>If we can't build -- and fly --
such that we can survive a snap, ... maybe the class should be renamed to
something a little less presumptuous... maybe 'More Advanced' -- or
'Highly Proficient' -- or 'Striving for Very Good' -- certainly something
less assertive than 'MASTERS'... <BR><BR>There's ample proof that the
sequence is flyable and that properly built equipment will stand up to it.
FAI F-05 has a rev A w/ 1-1/2 in it, for heaven's sake... <BR><BR>This
apparently endless second-guessing of sequences - first the unending flap
over the Intermediate snap and now this... is really pretty disheartening.
<BR><BR>I'm not crazy about the 2005 Masters sequence, but it's flyable
and scorable. Let's go fly it as it was proposed, voted on, approved, and
accepted -- and maybe pay more attention to the next set of proposed
sequences?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Heading for the
shop to strengthen my wings – while staying within the 11# limit -- then
to the field to practice flying the 2005 “Not Nearly as Good as FAI but
Maybe better than Advanced but Not Sure I can Do this Stuff” class
(formerly Masters) sequence. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">End of rant.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Rick Wallace
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">AMA
L727</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">NSRCA 2972
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday,
January 10, 2005 3:47 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Reverse av/RCU
poll</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Nat,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I respectfully disagree.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Forget about the reverse avalanche
for a moment. I find it unacceptable that it is <EM><I><FONT
face="Times New Roman">possible</FONT></I></EM> for a schedule to be put
in place with a maneuver that breaks current airplanes. And everyone says
"suck it up", "get over it", and we have to build new planes. Which, by
the way, are now worth less since anyone planning to move up to Masters is
not going to want to buy them.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Having to design/build new planes
because the old design does not fly the new schedule very well is one
thing, but to have to do it because the current designs simply won't
survive is something else altogether. Sure, I could fly a Tipo in the
Advanced class if I want. It may not fly the greatest, but it will fly.
And it will certainly challenge me. At least I won't have to carry a
shovel in my flightbox.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sure, in a couple of years, everyone
flying Masters will all have planes that will survive. Natural
selection will take care of that. BUT, will the sport be better off? I
don't think so. Some flyers may be put off by it. But, we only want the
best flying Masters, right!</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I'm not saying we should not make the
maneuvers less challenging. Heck, we could make the schedule more
challenging -- for the pilots, not the planes -- without having to
put maneuvers in the schedule that breaks planes.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I really wanted to get back into
pattern this year. Had planned on flying my old Finesse. Looks like I
might be better off with my old Cap 21. Then again, maybe
not.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob Richards (climbing off my
soapbox).</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Nat Penton
<natpenton@centurytel.net></SPAN></I></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ok all you
masters fliers, quit complaining and take your medicine. Your
<BR>problems with the reverse avalanche are imaginary. Manuever
schedules have <BR>always been designed to bring about enhancement of
the pilots and the <BR>airframes capabilities.<BR><BR>It is not
difficult to build an airframe that you cannot tear up. The
<BR>wingtube, for its weight, provides the most strength and rigidity of
any <BR>structural component. Why would you cut it off
??</SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>