<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I have never been involved in anything like
this Eric, Not sure if what's involved in this task and don't know if I will
have the time to achieve it. But will be something to think about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pattern4u@comcast.net href="mailto:pattern4u@comcast.net">Grow
Pattern</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class Structure</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> It's time to
design a new ladder. Want to see one or do one?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Eric.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kvelez@comcast.net href="mailto:kvelez@comcast.net">Ken Velez</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:56
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class Structure</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> <FONT size=3>Vern I totally agree with
you on the fact that the jump from intermediate is a huge one. Most pilots
when they move to intermediate are barely getting into speed with the
airplane instead of been behind it, I know I was, but I don't think that the
snap is any harder than the 3 rolls we used to have in fact I think the
snap is easier. Probably that's why the made it 2 instead of 3 but now they
also lost the immelmann and the snap whish also makes the sequence
shorter. How much more does it has to be simplified and it's bleeding into
advance. I still think that making the snap more simple and also at a higher
altitude following the immelmann and not pointing down in a 45 is a good
stepping stone into advance rather than lowering Advance to close the gap
that we created. Just mi opinion.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=verne@twmi.rr.com href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">Verne
Koester</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 10, 2005 9:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class Structure</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Ken,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I'm probably going to get blasted for this one, but
I think it is too hard for many of the pilots coming out of Sportsman. I
judge an awful lot of Intermediate pilots through the course of a summer.
I see some that are doing quite well who should be making the move to
Advanced. I see many others that get into all kinds of box trouble trying
to fly turnaround in a crosswind and just as many that merely survive the
two rolls rather than fly it. I've seen instances where a third roll
would've meant carnage. There are few that do the rolls quite well
but many more that don't. I fail to see the logic or safety of adding a
snap to pilots at that stage. I think the class as it stands has plenty of
lessons to be learned and that should be learned. I really believe that
Advanced is way too big of a jump coming out Intermediate and made these
same arguments as these schedules were being developed. Just my opinion
but it's based on experience and what I see. All of this is moot for a
couple of years anyhow. It would be inappropriate for a CB Member to
submit proposed schedules, at least I think it would, so any proposed
changes will have to come from you guys.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Verne</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kvelez@comcast.net href="mailto:kvelez@comcast.net">Ken
Velez</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 10, 2005 6:40
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class Structure</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Hey Vern instead of taking the snap
out of Advance why don't we incorporate back in Intermediate the
immelmann to the top and do a horizontal snap in the center, no 45 down
no figures just a clean straight and level snap at center to finish the
sequence. Introduces the snap into intermediate and isn't too difficult
for the sportsman coming up. Just a thought.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=verne@twmi.rr.com href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">Verne
Koester</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">NSRCA</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 09, 2005
6:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Class Structure</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT face="Times New Roman">Georgie,<BR>Here's
a novel idea. Leave Intermediate alone and take the snaps out of
<BR>Advanced. A pilot coming out of Intermediate into Advanced already
has to <BR>learn Slow Rolls, 4 Point Rolls, and a longer schedule with
more crosswind <BR>exposure maneuvers which is plenty.<BR><BR>The step
from Advanced to Masters is minimal at best. The step from
<BR>Intermediate to Advanced is monumental. The end result is a bunch
of pilots <BR>in Intermediate that are getting bored with their
schedule but still not <BR>ready for Advanced so they want to add
snaps to it. Only problem is that <BR>someone coming out of Sportsman
will likely be scared away if Intermediate <BR>is made any
tougher.<BR><BR>It's no surprise to me that the number of Masters
pilots at any given <BR>contest are far greater than the classes that
precede it. Most of us who are <BR>there came up through a balanced
system of steps. We're all out of whack <BR>right now. Unfortunately,
I seem to be one of only a handful of Masters and <BR>higher pilots
that still remembers how hard it was to learn slow and 4 point
<BR>rolls which gets introduced at the Advanced level. Take the snaps
and spins <BR>out of Advanced and introduce them at the Masters level,
put some box exits <BR>back where they need to be, and you'll have a
logical, balanced, and <BR>transitional set of schedules that
takes a pilot from Sportsman to however <BR>high he or she wants to
go.<BR><BR>Verne Koester<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR>From: "George Kennie" <</FONT><A href=""><FONT
face="Times New Roman">geobet@gis.net</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman">><BR>To: <</FONT><A href=""><FONT
face="Times New Roman">discussion@nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman">><BR>Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:28
PM<BR>Subject: Re: adding interest and complexity to Sportsman ...
again and again <BR>and<BR><BR><BR>> <<I'm not flying
masters, I'm flying advanced, the reason is<BR>> Masters is<BR>>
more difficult than I think I can reasonably fly at this time,
so<BR>> I'll work my way up. >><BR>><BR>> I
respectfully disagree with your assessment of schedule
difficulty.<BR>> I get the feeling that you haven't taken the time
to sit down and<BR>> really study the current Master's sequence. I
commend your attitude<BR>> of working your way up!!!IMHO, I find
the current Master's much less<BR>> threatening than the Advanced
sequence.<BR>><BR>> Somebody mentioned "going to contests
without practicing", and<BR>> indeed I can remember, back in the
60's going to a contest myself<BR>> having never performed the
required routine and doing quite well at<BR>> the time.However
those were significantly different times and I<BR>> myself would
not desire to return to the mindset of that period.It<BR>> was
called a "Pattern Contest" and the attendance was probably a<BR>>
couple of hundred guys, but the mindset was more like a current
day<BR>> "Fun- Fly". Nobody really took it all that seriously.
Somewhere<BR>> along the line, the few individuals that did have a
more serious<BR>> approach organized and brought a more serious
aspect to the sport<BR>> realizing that the basis for guys going
out and flying a routine<BR>> that was in fact JUDGED meant that
the concept must<BR>> be"COMPETITION". I think that this is
probably the reason you still<BR>> find the most heavily attended
events to be "Fun-Fly's". When it<BR>> gets too serious there are a
lot of guys that start to feel<BR>> threatened regarding their
status within the group structure and<BR>> when the pressure
becomes, in their estimation, greater than feels<BR>> comfortable
to them, they gravitate to a different venue that<BR>> restores the
level of comfort they deem appropriate.<BR>> The same thing seems
to happen, in my judgement, with schedule<BR>>
complexity.Some of us realize that if the schedules become more
and<BR>> more complex, at some point the difficulty factor will
become<BR>> significant enough to threaten our currently hard won
achievement<BR>> status, and indeed this is true.The decision that
probably needs to<BR>> be reasoned through is,in light of this
truth, should the pursuit of<BR>> excellence be sacrificed to
satisfy the inadequacies of those of us<BR>> who are clammoring to
maintain their elevation?<BR>> I consider myself a part of this
equation and recognize my own<BR>> inadequacies, however I
also realize that this same pursuit of<BR>> excellence will not be
enhanced by any concession to tilt the<BR>> playing field in my
favor. Noone will be served by that tack. Least<BR>> of all ME! My
flying prowess ranks somewhere between Sportsman and<BR>>
Intermediate(my assessment), and though I find a couple of the
FAI<BR>> maneuvers really tough to execute in a graceful manner, I
still feel<BR>> that there is no maneuver that I could not learn to
do and given<BR>> another 50 years of practice I might even be in a
position to<BR>> challenge Jason.<BR>> It's about STRIVING guys.
That's what COMPETITION is! And it's<BR>> purpose is to determine
the most skilled individual, with the rest<BR>> of us rated in
descending order beneath the rating of the BEST! So,<BR>> as you
can see, I'm not in favor of wussing out to make things<BR>> easier
for anybody who finds their position at the pinnacle<BR>>
precarious(and that includes ME).<BR>> Now, all that being said, I
do feel that we may have a void at the<BR>> bottom and should
probably go back again and reconsider a pre-novice<BR>> class for
the guy who has only been involved in the sport for 2<BR>> weeks
and has never practiced flying a straight line.This shouldn't<BR>>
take much additional time as the number of guys showing up to<BR>>
participate in this class will indeed be very few (which begs
the<BR>> question, how far do we have to concede in order to grow
the<BR>> ranks?).<BR>> The Sportsman sequence I proposed a
couple of days ago DOES appear<BR>> to be too difficult for some of
the respondants(but not all) and<BR>> maybe the old Novice schedule
should be made available for anybody<BR>> showing up to try (as a
pre-novice event).I also think that the<BR>> Intermediate should
introduce it's participant to the 45 downline<BR>> snap or at least
a center snap on a horizontal baseline as<BR>> preparation for
Advanced.<BR>> Only a bunch of opinions, guys! Don't mean I'm
right!<BR>> G.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
=================================================<BR>> To access
the email archives for this list, go to<BR>> </FONT><A
href=""><FONT
face="Times New Roman">http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">> To be removed from this list, go to
</FONT><A href=""><FONT
face="Times New Roman">http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">> and follow the
instructions.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>