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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Philosophically, I believe that judges providing
feedback to contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback during a
contest is inappropriate, if not unethical. If the feedback were shared
among all contestants, then maybe no inequities would be created, but this is
not what happens in practice, nor can it practically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I appreciate the interest in nurturing the sport
and helping the newcomer, but who decides when a person gets feedback and when
they do not. Terry suggests feedback might be permissible in
Sportsman. I <FONT face=Arial size=2>can see the value in that, but again,
unless the feedback for each contestant is shared with all the contests in the
class, someone is being advantaged or disadvantaged. How is letting one
guy have a re-flight when his engine dies during a round any different from
giving the same guy a pointer about his flying and not his
competition?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is not just the
Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in my
experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated, occurs
in all classes at most contests. A</FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>t major contests, for example the World Championships, care is
taken to avoid contact between judges and contestants. Why?...To avoid
biasing the results. It is a matter of fairness, and of
ethics/professionalism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we are going to openly give feedback at
contests, then we need formal guidelines in the same way we
need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform application.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think a better forum for the newcomer
to get feedback on his flying would be to have pattern seminars
(flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in spring
2004.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Andre'</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=amad2terry@juno.com href="mailto:amad2terry@juno.com">Terry
Terrenoire</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history that
gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole they have
great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level. I some
cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they believed they
should look, but were completely wrong. most of the constructive criticisms I
have rendered from the chair were of a very general nature. "establish a line
between manuvers", "call box entries and exits" "if you get the wings level
before entry your loops will be easier to keep on path"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes conflict
between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I have
made to these pilots has been genuinely appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at their home field to
help them. They may be trying this for the first time, and if we can give them
some good help, it may bring them back!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Terry T.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury" <<A
href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">ehaury@houston.rr.com</A>>
writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here are some considerations regarding judges
providing feedback to competitors the we should address. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The key word is "competitors".
Judges score individuals performances in competitions that are held to
ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform according to stated
rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one should assume that flyers
present their patterns to the unbiased judge sets and the let scores
describe the ranking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0>The presumption is that the
competitors arrive prepared to compete. Those who have worked the hardest on
this preparation will (and should) generally excel. A pattern contest isn't
intended to be a training ground, but a review of achievement and peer
comparison. Judges who provide feedback have good intentions, but there
are questions that deserve attention. Isn't the job of the judge to provide
the correct score for each maneuver? Is it appropriate for the judge
to (mis)direct attention to make notations for post flight
feedback? Will the feedback be consistent to all competitors, or "buddy
biased"? Is it fair to my competition for judges to point out my errors so
that I can correct them in subsequent flights? If judges with largely
different scores on a specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree - then
what? In the latter, will this disagreement influence a ju</FONT>dge to
change standards mid-round? What if some wish to discuss
feedback, or argue with it, at the expense of delaying the next
flight? What if this agitates the judges and you're next
up? </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I realize that the gist of the feedback issue
is to benefit the newbie, but the above points apply here also. We seem to
accept that anyone, without practice or proper equipment or preparation
(reading the rules), should be able to fly successfully in some form of
"beginner" class. This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled with the rules of
the beginner class for years to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges
feedback at a contest isn't going to help the unprepared. What will help is
mentoring - but not from the judges chair! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The best place to help the newbie is at the
practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these folks, provide
feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and critique. Help trim
their airplane, be supportive with equipment maintenance, etc. Get them
prepared for those first contests, call for them, critique their flights,
evaluate their scores, help them in every way as a coach and friend, and
pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't do this from the judges chair -
judging is the only job then. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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