<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=033513419-13012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>OK
guys, I am a newbie and have 3 contests under my belt. Believe me that was
the longest 10 min. of flying that I have ever experienced. I was nervous,
intimidated by upper class pilots and airplanes - you name it, but every
one, at each contest, including the judges offered encouragement and
advice. All of the judges worked with the sportsmen after they flew,
which I felt was great. I will enter 4 or 5 contests this year because
of a better understanding of the sportsman's class. Thanks to all the
input I received from Texas, LA and Arkansas - they are a bunch of
great guys. Also, Don R. from Texas held a special pilots meeting for all
the sportsmen prior to the contest and went over each maneuver at that time.
There was a question and answer time during this short seminar
that put all us newbies at ease - there was 6 or 7 entries in
sportsman class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=033513419-13012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=033513419-13012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>George Kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:57
PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback
[PMX:]<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">I think that there may be times when
consideration needs to be given to the circumstances at hand. <BR>While I can
certainly agree that there should be no communication between the judge and
the competitor at the World Championships, I think that there may be certain
situations where compassion may dictate some degree of mercy. <BR>Consider the
scenario where a new Sportsman pilot fails to call box entries and exits or
fails to call the landing and all the other pilots in the class are not guilty
of this same infraction and you ding him 2 points per infraction and at the
conclusion of his flight he queries the judge as to what he needs to do to
improve his scoring, then I wouldn't feel it rendering him and unfair
advantage to point out his shortcoming. <BR>As a judge, I would have
difficulty telling him that he needed to attend a judging seminar in order to
learn the rules of the game.I think he would view me as an authority, by
virtue of my position in the chair, and probably find me an elitist stinker.
<BR>G.
<P>Andre Bouchard wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Philosophically, I believe that judges
providing feedback to contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback during
a contest is inappropriate, if not unethical. If the feedback were
shared among all contestants, then maybe no inequities would be created, but
this is not what happens in practice, nor can it
practically.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>I appreciate
the interest in nurturing the sport and helping the newcomer, but who
decides when a person gets feedback and when they do not. Terry
suggests feedback might be permissible in Sportsman. I can see the
value in that, but again, unless the feedback for each contestant is shared
with all the contests in the class, someone is being advantaged or
disadvantaged. How is letting one guy have a re-flight when his engine
dies during a round any different from giving the same guy a pointer about
his flying and not his competition?</FONT></FONT> <FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=-1>It is not just the Sportsman pilot that the
feedback is being given to; in my experience, judge feedback, judge
initiated or contestant initiated, occurs in all classes at most
contests. At major contests, for example the World Championships, care
is taken to avoid contact between judges and contestants. Why?...To
avoid biasing the results. It is a matter of fairness, and of
ethics/professionalism.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>If
we are going to openly give feedback at contests, then we need formal
guidelines in the same way we need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform
application.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>I think a
better forum for the newcomer to get feedback on his flying would be to have
pattern seminars (flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in
spring 2004.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=-1>Andre'</FONT></FONT> ----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=amad2terry@juno.com href="mailto:amad2terry@juno.com">Terry
Terrenoire</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005
4:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge
Feedback</DIV> While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a
long history that gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken
as a whole they have great merit, but i don't see them applying to the
Sportsman level. I some cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers
the way they believed they should look, but were completely wrong. most of
the constructive criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very
general nature. "establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries and
exits" "if you get the wings level before entry your loops will be easier
to keep on path" I don't think the judes will be saying anything that
causes conflict between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All
the comments I have made to these pilots has been genuinely
appreciated. We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at
their home field to help them. They may be trying this for the first time,
and if we can give them some good help, it may bring them
back!! Terry T. On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl
Haury" <<A
href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">ehaury@houston.rr.com</A>> writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=-1>Here are some considerations regarding judges
providing feedback to competitors the we should
address.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>The key word
is "competitors". Judges score individuals performances in competitions
that are held to ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform
according to stated rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one
should assume that flyers present their patterns to the unbiased judge
sets and the let scores describe the ranking.</FONT></FONT> <FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=+0>The presumption is that the competitors arrive
prepared to compete. Those who have worked the hardest on this
preparation will (and should) generally excel. A pattern contest isn't
intended to be a training ground, but a review of achievement and peer
comparison. Judges who provide feedback have good intentions, but there
are questions that deserve attention. Isn't the job of the judge to
provide the correct score for each maneuver? Is it appropriate for the
judge to (mis)direct attention to make notations for post flight
feedback? Will the feedback be consistent to all competitors, or "buddy
biased"? Is it fair to my competition for judges to point out my errors
so that I can correct them in subsequent flights? If judges with largely
different scores on a specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree -
then what? In the latter, will this disagreement influence a
ju</FONT><FONT size=-1>dge to change standards mid-round? What if some
wish to discuss feedback, or argue with it, at the expense of
delaying the next flight? What if this agitates the judges and
you're next up?</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>I
realize that the gist of the feedback issue is to benefit the newbie,
but the above points apply here also. We seem to accept that anyone,
without practice or proper equipment or preparation (reading the rules),
should be able to fly successfully in some form of "beginner" class.
This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled with the rules of the beginner
class for years to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges feedback at a
contest isn't going to help the unprepared. What will help is mentoring
- but not from the judges chair!</FONT></FONT> <FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=-1>The best place to help the newbie is at the
practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these folks,
provide feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and
critique. Help trim their airplane, be supportive with equipment
maintenance, etc. Get them prepared for those first contests, call for
them, critique their flights, evaluate their scores, help them in every
way as a coach and friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't
do this from the judges chair - judging is the only job
then.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=-1>Earl</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.</FONT></P>