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I think that there may be times when consideration needs to be given to
the circumstances at hand.
<BR>While I can certainly agree that there should be no communication between
the judge and the competitor at the World Championships, I think that there
may be certain situations where compassion may dictate some degree of mercy.
<BR>Consider the scenario where a new Sportsman pilot fails to call box
entries and exits or fails to call the landing and all the other pilots
in the class are not guilty of this same infraction and you ding him 2
points per infraction and at the conclusion of his flight he queries the
judge as to what he needs to do to improve his scoring, then I wouldn't
feel it rendering him and unfair advantage to point out his shortcoming.
<BR>As a judge, I would have difficulty telling him that he needed to attend
a judging seminar in order to learn the rules of the game.I think he would
view me as an authority, by virtue of my position in the chair, and probably
find me an elitist stinker.
<BR>G.
<P>Andre Bouchard wrote:
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<FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Philosophically,
I believe that judges providing feedback to contestants, or contestants
soliciting feedback during a contest is inappropriate, if not unethical.
If the feedback were shared among all contestants, then maybe no inequities
would be created, but this is not what happens in practice, nor can it
practically.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>I appreciate
the interest in nurturing the sport and helping the newcomer, but who decides
when a person gets feedback and when they do not. Terry suggests
feedback might be permissible in Sportsman. I can see the value in
that, but again, unless the feedback for each contestant is shared with
all the contests in the class, someone is being advantaged or disadvantaged.
How is letting one guy have a re-flight when his engine dies during a round
any different from giving the same guy a pointer about his flying and not
his competition?</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>It
is not just the Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in
my experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated,
occurs in all classes at most contests. At major contests, for example
the World Championships, care is taken to avoid contact between judges
and contestants. Why?...To avoid biasing the results. It is
a matter of fairness, and of ethics/professionalism.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>If
we are going to openly give feedback at contests, then we need formal guidelines
in the same way we need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform application.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>I
think a better forum for the newcomer to get feedback on his flying would
be to have pattern seminars (flying) along the lines of what was done in
Houston in spring 2004.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Andre'</FONT></FONT> -----
Original Message -----
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A HREF="mailto:amad2terry@juno.com" title="amad2terry@juno.com">Terry
Terrenoire</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A HREF="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org" title="discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A HREF="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org" title="discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005
4:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history
that gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole
they have great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level.
I some cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they
believed they should look, but were completely wrong. most of the constructive
criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very general nature.
"establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries and exits" "if you
get the wings level before entry your loops will be easier to keep on path" I
don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes conflict between
them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I have made
to these pilots has been genuinely appreciated. We have to remember
that a lot of them have noone at their home field to help them. They may
be trying this for the first time, and if we can give them some good help,
it may bring them back!! Terry T. On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04
-0600 "Earl Haury" <<A HREF="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">ehaury@houston.rr.com</A>>
writes:
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style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Here
are some considerations regarding judges providing feedback to competitors
the we should address.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>The
key word is "competitors". Judges score individuals performances in competitions
that are held to ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform
according to stated rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one should
assume that flyers present their patterns to the unbiased judge sets and
the let scores describe the ranking.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=+0>The
presumption is that the competitors arrive prepared to compete. Those who
have worked the hardest on this preparation will (and should) generally
excel. A pattern contest isn't intended to be a training ground, but a
review of achievement and peer comparison. Judges who provide feedback
have good intentions, but there are questions that deserve attention. Isn't
the job of the judge to provide the correct score for each maneuver? Is
it appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct attention to make notations
for post flight feedback? Will the feedback be consistent to all competitors,
or "buddy biased"? Is it fair to my competition for judges to point out
my errors so that I can correct them in subsequent flights? If judges with
largely different scores on a specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree
- then what? In the latter, will this disagreement influence a ju</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>dge
to change standards mid-round? What if some wish to discuss feedback, or
argue with it, at the expense of delaying the next flight?
What if this agitates the judges and you're next up?</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>I
realize that the gist of the feedback issue is to benefit the newbie, but
the above points apply here also. We seem to accept that anyone, without
practice or proper equipment or preparation (reading the rules), should
be able to fly successfully in some form of "beginner" class. This doesn't
happen - and we've fiddled with the rules of the beginner class for years
to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges feedback at a contest isn't
going to help the unprepared. What will help is mentoring - but not from
the judges chair!</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>The
best place to help the newbie is at the practice field where everything
can be addressed. Coach these folks, provide feedback and assistance. Judge
flights, take notes, and critique. Help trim their airplane, be supportive
with equipment maintenance, etc. Get them prepared for those first contests,
call for them, critique their flights, evaluate their scores, help them
in every way as a coach and friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just
don't do this from the judges chair - judging is the only job then.</FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1>Earl</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
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