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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can understand the comments I'm hearing from the
FAI contingent for FAI and possibly Masters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now let's talk about the lower classes.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Should the winner of a lower class win because they
are the best pilot, or because their competition is kept in the dark?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From comments here it seems that some would be
upset if a judge let their competitor know about something they were not aware
of. If a judge tells a Sportsman or Intermediate pilot they were out of the box
or their square was a rectangle why should their competitors be upset? To be
upset suggests that you want your competitor kept in the dark because you're
afraid you can't beat them if they are made aware of what they're doing
wrong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I for one regularly point out mistakes to those I'm
flying against, and others do the same for me. For that matter I call for those
I fly against whether they're in my club or not, and when I'm standing there as
their caller my objective is to help them get the best flight possible. I KNOW
I've given advice that may have helped people beat me, so what? If they beat me
it's because they were better than me. If I win I want it to be because I was
better than the other pilots and not because we have rules that inhibit them
being told they're flying a maneuver wrong. Give them the info and put them
on a level playing field. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Everyone in the lower classes enjoys winning a
contests, but that's not the focus (for me at least). I'm there to improve and
have fun hanging around my pattern buddies. Even if I win a lower class I know
I'm still not the best pilot, clearly the majority of the guys at the contest
could kick my back-side. So why get so hung up on winning in the lower
classes? Give us all the information possible so maybe one day we can be up
there with you serious guys. Until then we're just fighting about who's the best
not as good as most pilot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=akfai@gci.net href="mailto:akfai@gci.net">Andre Bouchard</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:22
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Philosophically, I believe that judges providing
feedback to contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback during a
contest is inappropriate, if not unethical. If the feedback were shared
among all contestants, then maybe no inequities would be created, but this is
not what happens in practice, nor can it practically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I appreciate the interest in nurturing the sport
and helping the newcomer, but who decides when a person gets feedback and when
they do not. Terry suggests feedback might be permissible in
Sportsman. I <FONT face=Arial size=2>can see the value in that, but
again, unless the feedback for each contestant is shared with all the contests
in the class, someone is being advantaged or disadvantaged. How is
letting one guy have a re-flight when his engine dies during a round any
different from giving the same guy a pointer about his flying and not his
competition?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is not just the
Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in my
experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated,
occurs in all classes at most contests. A</FONT></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>t major contests, for example the World
Championships, care is taken to avoid contact between judges and
contestants. Why?...To avoid biasing the results. It is a matter
of fairness, and of ethics/professionalism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we are going to openly give feedback at
contests, then we need formal guidelines in the same way we
need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform application.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think a better forum for the newcomer
to get feedback on his flying would be to have pattern seminars
(flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in spring
2004.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Andre'</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=amad2terry@juno.com href="mailto:amad2terry@juno.com">Terry
Terrenoire</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history that
gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole they have
great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level. I some
cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they believed
they should look, but were completely wrong. most of the constructive
criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very general nature.
"establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries and exits" "if you
get the wings level before entry your loops will be easier to keep on
path"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes conflict
between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I have
made to these pilots has been genuinely appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at their home field
to help them. They may be trying this for the first time, and if we can give
them some good help, it may bring them back!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Terry T.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury" <<A
href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">ehaury@houston.rr.com</A>>
writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here are some considerations regarding judges
providing feedback to competitors the we should address. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The key word is "competitors".
Judges score individuals performances in competitions that are held
to ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform according to
stated rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one should assume
that flyers present their patterns to the unbiased judge sets and the let
scores describe the ranking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0>The presumption is that
the competitors arrive prepared to compete. Those who have worked the
hardest on this preparation will (and should) generally excel. A pattern
contest isn't intended to be a training ground, but a review of
achievement and peer comparison. Judges who provide feedback have
good intentions, but there are questions that deserve attention. Isn't the
job of the judge to provide the correct score for each maneuver? Is it
appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct attention to make
notations for post flight feedback? Will the feedback be consistent
to all competitors, or "buddy biased"? Is it fair to my competition for
judges to point out my errors so that I can correct them in subsequent
flights? If judges with largely different scores on a specific
maneuver offer feedback and disagree - then what? In the latter, will
this disagreement influence a ju</FONT>dge to change standards mid-round?
What if some wish to discuss feedback, or argue with it, at
the expense of delaying the next flight? What if this agitates
the judges and you're next up? </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I realize that the gist of the feedback issue
is to benefit the newbie, but the above points apply here also. We seem to
accept that anyone, without practice or proper equipment or preparation
(reading the rules), should be able to fly successfully in some form of
"beginner" class. This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled with the rules
of the beginner class for years to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges
feedback at a contest isn't going to help the unprepared. What will help
is mentoring - but not from the judges chair! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The best place to help the newbie is at the
practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these folks,
provide feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and critique.
Help trim their airplane, be supportive with equipment maintenance, etc.
Get them prepared for those first contests, call for them, critique their
flights, evaluate their scores, help them in every way as a coach and
friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't do this from the
judges chair - judging is the only job then. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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