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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith - as you know - there is a fine line, which
is quite fuzzy, between "pointing out defects" and "coaching". In fact, it
is nearly indistinguishable at times.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> For example, if I point out to
someone that they were violating the box on a turnaround, VERY often the reply
is "What should I do about it?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> If the Judge is a "natural
coach", he answers from his experience.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And that's where the unfair advantage
begins.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Not saying we can't keep it all straight, but MANY,
MANY pilots want just a skosh more info than "your roll was off-center
left"....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Bob Pastorello<BR>NSRCA 199 AMA 46373<BR><A
href="mailto:rcaerobob@cox.net">rcaerobob@cox.net</A><BR><A
href="http://www.rcaerobats.net">www.rcaerobats.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithb@comcast.net href="mailto:tkeithb@comcast.net">Keith Black</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback - Winning...
Knowledge or Talent?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can understand the comments I'm hearing from
the FAI contingent for FAI and possibly Masters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now let's talk about the lower classes.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Should the winner of a lower class win because
they are the best pilot, or because their competition is kept in the dark?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From comments here it seems that some would be
upset if a judge let their competitor know about something they were not aware
of. If a judge tells a Sportsman or Intermediate pilot they were out of the
box or their square was a rectangle why should their competitors be upset? To
be upset suggests that you want your competitor kept in the dark because
you're afraid you can't beat them if they are made aware of what they're doing
wrong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I for one regularly point out mistakes to those
I'm flying against, and others do the same for me. For that matter I call for
those I fly against whether they're in my club or not, and when I'm standing
there as their caller my objective is to help them get the best flight
possible. I KNOW I've given advice that may have helped people beat me, so
what? If they beat me it's because they were better than me. If I win I want
it to be because I was better than the other pilots and not because we have
rules that inhibit them being told they're flying a maneuver wrong. Give
them the info and put them on a level playing field. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Everyone in the lower classes enjoys winning a
contests, but that's not the focus (for me at least). I'm there to improve and
have fun hanging around my pattern buddies. Even if I win a lower class I know
I'm still not the best pilot, clearly the majority of the guys at the contest
could kick my back-side. So why get so hung up on winning in the lower
classes? Give us all the information possible so maybe one day we can be up
there with you serious guys. Until then we're just fighting about who's the
best not as good as most pilot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=akfai@gci.net href="mailto:akfai@gci.net">Andre Bouchard</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:22
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Philosophically, I believe that judges
providing feedback to contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback
during a contest is inappropriate, if not unethical. If the feedback
were shared among all contestants, then maybe no inequities would be
created, but this is not what happens in practice, nor can it
practically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I appreciate the interest in nurturing the
sport and helping the newcomer, but who decides when a person gets feedback
and when they do not. Terry suggests feedback might be permissible in
Sportsman. I <FONT face=Arial size=2>can see the value in that, but
again, unless the feedback for each contestant is shared with all the
contests in the class, someone is being advantaged or disadvantaged.
How is letting one guy have a re-flight when his engine dies during a round
any different from giving the same guy a pointer about his flying and not
his competition?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is not just the
Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in my
experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated,
occurs in all classes at most contests. A</FONT></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>t major contests, for example the World
Championships, care is taken to avoid contact between judges and
contestants. Why?...To avoid biasing the results. It is a matter
of fairness, and of ethics/professionalism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we are going to openly give feedback at
contests, then we need formal guidelines in the same way we
need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform
application.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think a better forum for the
newcomer to get feedback on his flying would be to have pattern
seminars (flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in spring
2004.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Andre'</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=amad2terry@juno.com href="mailto:amad2terry@juno.com">Terry
Terrenoire</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005
4:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history that
gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole they
have great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level. I
some cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they
believed they should look, but were completely wrong. most of the
constructive criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very
general nature. "establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries and
exits" "if you get the wings level before entry your loops will be easier
to keep on path"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes conflict
between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I
have made to these pilots has been genuinely appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at their home field
to help them. They may be trying this for the first time, and if we can
give them some good help, it may bring them back!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Terry T.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury" <<A
href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">ehaury@houston.rr.com</A>>
writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here are some considerations regarding
judges providing feedback to competitors the we should address.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The key word is "competitors".
Judges score individuals performances in competitions that are held
to ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform according to
stated rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one should assume
that flyers present their patterns to the unbiased judge sets and the
let scores describe the ranking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0>The presumption is that
the competitors arrive prepared to compete. Those who have worked the
hardest on this preparation will (and should) generally excel. A pattern
contest isn't intended to be a training ground, but a review of
achievement and peer comparison. Judges who provide feedback have
good intentions, but there are questions that deserve attention. Isn't
the job of the judge to provide the correct score for each maneuver? Is
it appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct attention to make
notations for post flight feedback? Will the feedback be consistent
to all competitors, or "buddy biased"? Is it fair to my competition for
judges to point out my errors so that I can correct them in subsequent
flights? If judges with largely different scores on a specific
maneuver offer feedback and disagree - then what? In the
latter, will this disagreement influence a ju</FONT>dge to change
standards mid-round? What if some wish to discuss
feedback, or argue with it, at the expense of delaying the next
flight? What if this agitates the judges and you're next
up? </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I realize that the gist of the feedback
issue is to benefit the newbie, but the above points apply here also. We
seem to accept that anyone, without practice or proper equipment or
preparation (reading the rules), should be able to fly successfully in
some form of "beginner" class. This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled
with the rules of the beginner class for years to little avail.
Unfortunately, the judges feedback at a contest isn't going to help the
unprepared. What will help is mentoring - but not from the judges chair!
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The best place to help the newbie is at the
practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these folks,
provide feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and
critique. Help trim their airplane, be supportive with equipment
maintenance, etc. Get them prepared for those first contests, call for
them, critique their flights, evaluate their scores, help them in every
way as a coach and friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't
do this from the judges chair - judging is the only job then.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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