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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lance, I think you're on the mark here. I flew my
first full year of Intermediate this past summer and many times a judge would
give me some helpful hints on things to improve. It sure didn't help me at that
contest because I had not practiced it for it to become automatic yet. But what
it did do was give me notes to take to the next practice session and work on. I
also watched other fellow competitors in my class get advise and it didn't
change anything in the final outcome of that contest. Now I'm sure there are
some good pilots that can make the quick adjustment but I'll bet most of us have
to make it a routine in practice for it to stick. Besides, if all that advise
would have been instantaneous I could have beat Keith at least once.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mike Austin</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net
href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">patterndude@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback - Winning...
Knowledge or Talent?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Keith,</DIV>
<DIV>I agree. You make the point well. It's an interesting point
that maybe feedback should only be given to "lower classes" but I'm not sure i
agree. Knowing what you did wrong and being able to readjust your flying
to compensate are two totally different skills. However, the
complexity increases substantially for Masters and FAI. These pilots are
good so just because you saw a downgrade doesn't mean that it will be repeated
and the pilot probably saw it too, he just messed up. THe chances of any
advice you have being on the mark get slimmer as you move up the
foodchain. I think feedback at this level is best left to arrangements
between the pilot and his caller or prearranged observer. These are
amply available at contests and can provide this critical information to the
pilot. </DIV>
<DIV> Of course, this same approach is availabel to everyone but
Sportsman/Intermediates don't typically think about this and when you give
feedback, even if they already saw what you saw, they are more likely to be
happy just to get confirmation to what they were already thinking. I
know what it feels like to know that half the people at the contest can see
more mistakes in my flying than I can. I pretty much feel this way all the
time, so all feedback is welcome. </DIV>
<DIV> Sometimes we are judges, other times we watch our friends
fly. Being in the judges chair is no different from sitting in your
armchair. If you see something that your friend will benefit from
knowing, let him know. He still has to execute it. Why keep him in
the dark?</DIV>
<DIV>--Lance</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>District 6 AVP
<BR>www.aeroslave.com</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can understand the comments I'm hearing from
the FAI contingent for FAI and possibly Masters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now let's talk about the lower classes.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Should the winner of a lower class win because
they are the best pilot, or because their competition is kept in the dark?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From comments here it seems that some would be
upset if a judge let their competitor know about something they were not
aware of. If a judge tells a Sportsman or Intermediate pilot they were out
of the box or their square was a rectangle why should their competitors be
upset? To be upset suggests that you want your competitor kept in the dark
because you're afraid you can't beat them if they are made aware of what
they're doing wrong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I for one regularly point out mistakes to those
I'm flying against, and others do the same for me. For that matter I call
for those I fly against whether they're in my club or not, and when I'm
standing there as their caller my objective is to help them get the best
flight possible. I KNOW I've given advice that may have helped people beat
me, so what? If they beat me it's because they were better than me. If I win
I want it to be because I was better than the other pilots and not because
we have rules that inhibit them being told they're flying a maneuver
wrong. Give them the info and put them on a level playing field.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Everyone in the lower classes enjoys winning a
contests, but that's not the focus (for me at least). I'm there to improve
and have fun hanging around my pattern buddies. Even if I win a lower class
I know I'm still not the best pilot, clearly the majority of the guys at the
contest could kick my back-side. So why get so hung up on winning in
the lower classes? Give us all the information possible so maybe one day we
can be up there with you serious guys. Until then we're just fighting about
who's the best not as good as most pilot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=akfai@gci.net href="mailto:akfai@gci.net">Andre Bouchard</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005
11:22 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Philosophically, I believe that judges
providing feedback to contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback
during a contest is inappropriate, if not unethical. If the feedback
were shared among all contestants, then maybe no inequities would be
created, but this is not what happens in practice, nor can it
practically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I appreciate the interest in nurturing the
sport and helping the newcomer, but who decides when a person gets
feedback and when they do not. Terry suggests feedback might be
permissible in Sportsman. I <FONT face=Arial size=2>can see the
value in that, but again, unless the feedback for each contestant is
shared with all the contests in the class, someone is being advantaged or
disadvantaged. How is letting one guy have a re-flight when his
engine dies during a round any different from giving the same guy a
pointer about his flying and not his competition?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is not just the
Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in my
experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated,
occurs in all classes at most contests. A</FONT></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>t major contests, for example the World
Championships, care is taken to avoid contact between judges and
contestants. Why?...To avoid biasing the results. It is a
matter of fairness, and of ethics/professionalism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we are going to openly give feedback at
contests, then we need formal guidelines in the same way we
need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform
application.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think a better forum for the
newcomer to get feedback on his flying would be to have pattern
seminars (flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in
spring 2004.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Andre'</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=amad2terry@juno.com href="mailto:amad2terry@juno.com">Terry
Terrenoire</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 12, 2005
4:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Judge Feedback</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history
that gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole
they have great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman
level. I some cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way
they believed they should look, but were completely wrong. most of the
constructive criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very
general nature. "establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries
and exits" "if you get the wings level before entry your loops will be
easier to keep on path"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes
conflict between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the
comments I have made to these pilots has been genuinely
appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at their home
field to help them. They may be trying this for the first time, and if
we can give them some good help, it may bring them back!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Terry T.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury" <<A
href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">ehaury@houston.rr.com</A>>
writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here are some considerations regarding
judges providing feedback to competitors the we should address.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The key word is "competitors".
Judges score individuals performances in competitions that are
held to ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform
according to stated rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one
should assume that flyers present their patterns to the unbiased judge
sets and the let scores describe the ranking. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0>The presumption is
that the competitors arrive prepared to compete. Those who have worked
the hardest on this preparation will (and should) generally excel. A
pattern contest isn't intended to be a training ground, but a review
of achievement and peer comparison. Judges who provide feedback
have good intentions, but there are questions that deserve attention.
Isn't the job of the judge to provide the correct score for each
maneuver? Is it appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct
attention to make notations for post flight feedback? Will the
feedback be consistent to all competitors, or "buddy biased"? Is it
fair to my competition for judges to point out my errors so that I can
correct them in subsequent flights? If judges with largely
different scores on a specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree -
then what? In the latter, will this disagreement influence a
ju</FONT>dge to change standards mid-round? What if
some wish to
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I realize that the gist of the feedback
issue is to benefit the newbie, but the above points apply here also.
We seem to accept that anyone, without practice or proper equipment or
preparation (reading the rules), should be able to fly successfully in
some form of "beginner" class. This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled
with the rules of the beginner class for years to little avail.
Unfortunately, the judges feedback at a contest isn't going to help
the unprepared. What will help is mentoring - but not from the judges
chair! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The best place to help the newbie is at
the practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these
folks, provide feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and
critique. Help trim their airplane, be supportive with equipment
maintenance, etc. Get them prepared for those first contests, call for
them, critique their flights, evaluate their scores, help them in
every way as a coach and friend, and pattern will gain in numbers.
Just don't do this from the judges chair - judging is the only job
then. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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