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<DIV><SPAN class=863550720-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>All I
have is guesses, I will go out and try this with the plane I'm fiddling with,
now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=863550720-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill
Glaze<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:48 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Throt/ Rud<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I
hesitate to get something started here, but here goes anyway<G>:<BR>A
long conversation I had with Dick Hanson ~1996 or so, was about right
thrust. Dick said that "it wasn't needed" on our pattern planes; in
fact, he had a 0-0-0 airplane with his EMC. His feeling was that you
needed to be on the rudder all the time anyway, so zero things out so that
you knew where you stood all the time. He felt that your fingers
could do all the tricks needed. Countering Dick's statement, I
will say that every full-size propellor driven airplane I ever flew had some
right thrust. (Well, except for the DC-6) so the full-size designers
didn't share Dick's philosophy. That's O.K. though, because of different
functions/sizes of airframe. However, the right thrust did lead to some
funny things. The P-51 Mustang had a little right thrust, (can't
remember how much) and an offset fin that put in some right rudder.
Reading the -1 manual stated that "when all power is removed for landing, some
input of LEFT rudder may be required."<BR>Interestingly, I have been able to
observe some of the top fliers at the Nats. Their airplanes were visibly
flying perfectly smoothly straight and level. But, if you observed their
transmitter at the same time, you would notice that their fingers were always
busy inputting tiny amounts of control. They didn't do like some of us
(ahem) do, which is try to trim the airplane so it's hands off, then just let
it fly itself.<BR>Anyway, I'm just interested in the different schools of
thought about this engine offset versus trimming. I expect to learn
something from this thread.<BR>Bill Glaze<BR><BR>Dean Pappas wrote:
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type="cite">
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<DIV><SPAN class=623454817-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Agreed with both of you.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=623454817-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>What's more, in the past, when it looked like a plane required too
much right thrust, and would developo the warts that have been described, I
would reduce the right thrust until pulls took the same amount of right
rudder as pushes required left. My guess is that that is the ideal right
thrust setting from which to start fiddling with the
radio.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=623454817-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Regards All,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=623454817-27012005> <FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Nat Penton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:14
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Throt/ Rud<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bravo Bob Richards !</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">Bob
Richards</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:15 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Throt/ Rud</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ed,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am a very firm believer (no one will convince me otherwise) of
<STRONG>exactly</STRONG> what you describe. Slipstream effect is the
whole reason we put right thrust in our engines. It has NOTHING to do
with torque, <A
href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ex-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html">P-factor</A>,
or <A
href="http://www.cybercom.net/%7Ecopters/aero/gyro.html">gyroscopic
precession</A>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The issue of transitioning from vertical to horizontal (either to
inverted or upright) is a gyroscopic precession issue. The best way to
counter that is to use lighter weight props turning at lower rpm --
less spinning mass and less gyroscopic effect.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>P-factor only exists at high angle of attacks, which does not
happen in a vertical climb. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Torque tries to roll the plane, and some schools of thought are
that, to counter the torque-induced roll, the left wing has to lift more
than the right, causing more induced drag on the left. While this may be
true for a lot of planes while taking off, this does not apply to
pattern planes in a vertical climb since both wing panels would be
fighting the torque equally.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gyroscopic precession only occurs when the airplane is moving
around its pitch axis, as when pulling or pushing a corner. It is most
noticeable when the airplane is slow, since there is less aerodynamic
stabilizing force available from the rudder/fin. IMHO, no
throttle-rudder mix is going to correct this. It <STRONG>might</STRONG>
be possible to mix elevator to rudder, and enable/disable the mix based
on throttle position.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When I flew a Cap21 in pattern, I had to use left rudder when
pulling an inside corner at the top of square loops. I had to use a TON
of right rudder when pushing a corner, and this was with about 5 degrees
of right thrust.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>IMHO, learn to do it with your thumbs. Practice enough and it will
become automatic. Just my 2CW.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob R.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Edward Skorepa <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:edsko@xmission.com"><edsko@xmission.com></A></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm confused too. I know, I know I
shouldn't argue with someone like chip but I believe the main reason
we're putting right thrust is an asymmetric vertical fin. On most
conventional airplanes the area above thrust line is much greater then
area below. So, the spiraling slip stream will hit the top
portion of the vertical fin from the left pushing tail to the right
thus right thrust. When inverted, the spiraling slip stream will hit
vertical fin from the right because fin is now on the opposite
side and pushes tail to the left. To straighten the flight path,
we need now the left thrust which is already there. During inverted
push ups, why do we need to use left rudder? The spiraling slip stream
misses completely vertical fin and the right (left when inverted)
thrust is causing airplane to yaw left. If you have a big gasser, turn
on smoke, do inverted push up and watch where the smoke goes. However,
Chip's approach of fixing ! the inverted push ups problem is
quite interesting and I'll try it on my new bird I'm working on right
now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ed</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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