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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I guess if you guys were REALLY serious
about pattern models, you’d design counter-rotating props for the
engines. . .<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Keith L. Hoard<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Cordova</span></font></st1:City><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>, <st1:State
w:st="on">TN</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>khoard@midsouth.rr.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 27, 2005
12:17 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">discussion@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Throt/ Rud</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Bob, this is exactly how I feel. Why
not learn to use the sticks? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>On the money with P-Factor (not to be
confused with K-factor) and GP also. Slipstream is the key and it could be
significantly straightened by doing something similar to what Nat has done with
the Xpress series of models. Strakes surrounding the CG help
reduce the effects. This is a design feature tha belongs on all pattern models.
IMHO<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>MattK<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> In a message dated 1/27/2005
8:18:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, bob@toprudder.com writes:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Ed,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I am a very firm believer (no one will
convince me otherwise) of <strong><b><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:
Arial'>exactly</span></font></b></strong> what you describe. Slipstream effect
is the whole reason we put right thrust in our engines. It has NOTHING to do
with torque, <a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~x-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html"
title="http://home.earthlink.net/~x-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html">P-factor</a>,
or <a href="http://www.cybercom.net/~copters/aero/gyro.html"
title="http://www.cybercom.net/~copters/aero/gyro.html">gyroscopic precession</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The issue of transitioning from vertical
to horizontal (either to inverted or upright) is a gyroscopic precession issue.
The best way to counter that is to use lighter weight props turning at lower
rpm -- less spinning mass and less gyroscopic effect.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>P-factor only exists at high angle of
attacks, which does not happen in a vertical climb. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Torque tries to roll the plane, and some
schools of thought are that, to counter the torque-induced roll, the left wing
has to lift more than the right, causing more induced drag on the left. While
this may be true for a lot of planes while taking off, this does not apply to
pattern planes in a vertical climb since both wing panels would be fighting the
torque equally.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Gyroscopic precession only occurs when
the airplane is moving around its pitch axis, as when pulling or pushing a
corner. It is most noticeable when the airplane is slow, since there is less
aerodynamic stabilizing force available from the rudder/fin. IMHO, no throttle-rudder
mix is going to correct this. It <strong><b><font face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial'>might</span></font></b></strong> be possible to mix
elevator to rudder, and enable/disable the mix based on throttle position.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>When I flew a Cap21 in pattern, I had to
use left rudder when pulling an inside corner at the top of square loops. I had
to use a TON of right rudder when pushing a corner, and this was with about 5
degrees of right thrust.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>IMHO, learn to do it with your thumbs.
Practice enough and it will become automatic. Just my 2CW.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Bob R.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Edward Skorepa
<edsko@xmission.com></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I'm confused too. I know, I know I
shouldn't argue with someone like chip but I believe the main reason we're
putting right thrust is an asymmetric vertical fin. On most conventional
airplanes the area above thrust line is much greater then area below. So, the
spiraling slip stream will hit the top portion of the vertical fin from
the left pushing tail to the right thus right thrust. When inverted, the
spiraling slip stream will hit vertical fin from the right because fin is
now on the opposite side and pushes tail to the left. To straighten the
flight path, we need now the left thrust which is already there. During
inverted push ups, why do we need to use left rudder? The spiraling slip stream
misses completely vertical fin and the right (left when inverted) thrust is
causing airplane to yaw left. If you have a big gasser, turn on smoke, do
inverted push up and watch where the smoke goes. However, Chip's
approach of fixing the inverted push ups problem is quite interesting and
I'll try it on my new bird I'm working on right now.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>ed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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