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Dave:<br>
We are in agreement about your statement below. Change anything at
all, and you are now out of trim for the new flight condition. Bill
Glaze<br>
<br>
David Lockhart wrote:<br>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I too spoke with Dick Hanson at
length about right thrust about the time he brought out the EMC
design. My recollection was that his contention was that the amount of
right thrust that was "correct" was only correct for a given power
setting and given airpspeed (and I agree). So just learn to fly the
rudder. I found on the EMC that 2.5 degrees of right thrust had very
little if any adverse effects, and reduced the amount of rudder needed
in a number of places.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br>
Dave</font></div>
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="edbon85@charter.net" href="mailto:edbon85@charter.net">Ed
Miller</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="discussion@nsrca.org" href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:01 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: Throt/ Rud</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I copied Dave Lockhart's EMC2
setup on mine which included 2 1/2 degrees right thrust which seemed
perfect with the APC 15.75 x 11 3 blade prop. I can tell you on pulls
to verticals the plane will track straight for nearly 2 box heights
with no rudder input. I did not notice a problem with yawing when
slowing the plane upright or inverted, guess it all depends on the
design.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Ed M.</font></div>
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<div
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Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="d.pappas@kodeos.com" href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="discussion@nsrca.org" href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:08 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
RE: Throt/ Rud</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="863550720-27012005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">All I have is guesses, I will go out and try
this with the plane I'm fiddling with, now.</font></span></div>
<div><span class="863550720-27012005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">Dean</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman"><a href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</a></font>
</p>
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<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" dir="ltr"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</a>]<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Glaze<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Throt/ Rud<br>
<br>
</font></div>
I hesitate to get something started here, but here goes anyway<G>:<br>
A long conversation I had with Dick Hanson ~1996 or so, was about right
thrust. Dick said that "it wasn't needed" on our pattern planes; in
fact, he had a 0-0-0 airplane with his EMC. His feeling was that you
needed to be on the rudder all the time anyway, so zero things out so
that you knew where you stood all the time. He felt that your fingers
could do all the tricks needed. Countering Dick's statement, I will
say that every full-size propellor driven airplane I ever flew had some
right thrust. (Well, except for the DC-6) so the full-size designers
didn't share Dick's philosophy. That's O.K. though, because of
different functions/sizes of airframe. However, the right thrust did
lead to some funny things. The P-51 Mustang had a little right thrust,
(can't remember how much) and an offset fin that put in some right
rudder. Reading the -1 manual stated that "when all power is removed
for landing, some input of LEFT rudder may be required."<br>
Interestingly, I have been able to observe some of the top fliers at
the Nats. Their airplanes were visibly flying perfectly smoothly
straight and level. But, if you observed their transmitter at the same
time, you would notice that their fingers were always busy inputting
tiny amounts of control. They didn't do like some of us (ahem) do,
which is try to trim the airplane so it's hands off, then just let it
fly itself.<br>
Anyway, I'm just interested in the different schools of thought about
this engine offset versus trimming. I expect to learn something from
this thread.<br>
Bill Glaze<br>
<br>
Dean Pappas wrote:
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<div><span class="623454817-27012005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">Agreed with both of you.</font></span></div>
<div><span class="623454817-27012005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">What's more, in the past, when it looked like a
plane required too much right thrust, and would developo the warts that
have been described, I would reduce the right thrust until pulls took
the same amount of right rudder as pushes required left. My guess is
that that is the ideal right thrust setting from which to start
fiddling with the radio.</font></span></div>
<div><span class="623454817-27012005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">Regards All,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="623454817-27012005"> <font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Dean</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman"><a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</a></font>
</p>
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<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" dir="ltr"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Nat Penton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Throt/ Rud<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Bravo Bob Richards !</font></div>
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="bob@toprudder.com"
href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="discussion@nsrca.org"
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:15 AM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: Throt/ Rud</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ed,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I am a very firm believer (no one will convince me
otherwise) of <strong>exactly</strong> what you describe. Slipstream
effect is the whole reason we put right thrust in our engines. It has
NOTHING to do with torque, <a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ex-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html">P-factor</a>,
or <a href="http://www.cybercom.net/%7Ecopters/aero/gyro.html">gyroscopic
precession</a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The issue of transitioning from vertical to
horizontal (either to inverted or upright) is a gyroscopic precession
issue. The best way to counter that is to use lighter weight props
turning at lower rpm -- less spinning mass and less gyroscopic effect.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>P-factor only exists at high angle of attacks, which
does not happen in a vertical climb. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Torque tries to roll the plane, and some schools of
thought are that, to counter the torque-induced roll, the left wing has
to lift more than the right, causing more induced drag on the left.
While this may be true for a lot of planes while taking off, this does
not apply to pattern planes in a vertical climb since both wing panels
would be fighting the torque equally.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Gyroscopic precession only occurs when the airplane
is moving around its pitch axis, as when pulling or pushing a corner.
It is most noticeable when the airplane is slow, since there is less
aerodynamic stabilizing force available from the rudder/fin. IMHO, no
throttle-rudder mix is going to correct this. It <strong>might</strong>
be possible to mix elevator to rudder, and enable/disable the mix based
on throttle position.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>When I flew a Cap21 in pattern, I had to use left
rudder when pulling an inside corner at the top of square loops. I had
to use a TON of right rudder when pushing a corner, and this was with
about 5 degrees of right thrust.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>IMHO, learn to do it with your thumbs. Practice
enough and it will become automatic. Just my 2CW.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob R.</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<b><i>Edward Skorepa <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:edsko@xmission.com"><edsko@xmission.com></a></i></b>
wrote:</div>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I'm confused too. I
know, I know I shouldn't argue with someone like chip but I believe the
main reason we're putting right thrust is an asymmetric vertical fin.
On most conventional airplanes the area above thrust line is much
greater then area below. So, the spiraling slip stream will hit the
top portion of the vertical fin from the left pushing tail to the right
thus right thrust. When inverted, the spiraling slip stream will hit
vertical fin from the right because fin is now on the opposite side
and pushes tail to the left. To straighten the flight path, we need
now the left thrust which is already there. During inverted push ups,
why do we need to use left rudder? The spiraling slip stream misses
completely vertical fin and the right (left when inverted) thrust is
causing airplane to yaw left. If you have a big gasser, turn on smoke,
do inverted push up and watch where the smoke goes. However, Chip's
approach of fixing ! the inverted push ups problem is quite interesting
and I'll try it on my new bird I'm working on right now.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">ed</font></div>
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