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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I too spoke with Dick Hanson at length about right
thrust about the time he brought out the EMC design. My recollection was
that his contention was that the amount of right thrust that was "correct" was
only correct for a given power setting and given airpspeed (and I agree).
So just learn to fly the rudder. I found on the EMC that 2.5 degrees of
right thrust had very little if any adverse effects, and reduced the amount of
rudder needed in a number of places.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Dave</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=edbon85@charter.net href="mailto:edbon85@charter.net">Ed Miller</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:01
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Throt/ Rud</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I copied Dave Lockhart's EMC2 setup on mine which
included 2 1/2 degrees right thrust which seemed perfect with the APC 15.75 x
11 3 blade prop. I can tell you on pulls to verticals the plane will track
straight for nearly 2 box heights with no rudder input. I did not notice a
problem with yawing when slowing the plane upright or inverted, guess it all
depends on the design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed M.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:08
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Throt/ Rud</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=863550720-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>All I have is guesses, I will go out and try this with the plane I'm
fiddling with, now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=863550720-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><A
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT> </P>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill
Glaze<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:48 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Throt/
Rud<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I hesitate to get something started here, but here
goes anyway<G>:<BR>A long conversation I had with Dick Hanson ~1996
or so, was about right thrust. Dick said that "it wasn't needed" on
our pattern planes; in fact, he had a 0-0-0 airplane with his EMC.
His feeling was that you needed to be on the rudder all the time anyway,
so zero things out so that you knew where you stood all the
time. He felt that your fingers could do all the tricks
needed. Countering Dick's statement, I will say that every
full-size propellor driven airplane I ever flew had some right
thrust. (Well, except for the DC-6) so the full-size designers
didn't share Dick's philosophy. That's O.K. though, because of
different functions/sizes of airframe. However, the right thrust did
lead to some funny things. The P-51 Mustang had a little right
thrust, (can't remember how much) and an offset fin that put in some right
rudder. Reading the -1 manual stated that "when all power is removed
for landing, some input of LEFT rudder may be required."<BR>Interestingly,
I have been able to observe some of the top fliers at the Nats.
Their airplanes were visibly flying perfectly smoothly straight and
level. But, if you observed their transmitter at the same time, you
would notice that their fingers were always busy inputting tiny amounts of
control. They didn't do like some of us (ahem) do, which is try to
trim the airplane so it's hands off, then just let it fly
itself.<BR>Anyway, I'm just interested in the different schools of thought
about this engine offset versus trimming. I expect to learn
something from this thread.<BR>Bill Glaze<BR><BR>Dean Pappas wrote:
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<DIV><SPAN class=623454817-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Agreed with both of you.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=623454817-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>What's more, in the past, when it looked like a plane required
too much right thrust, and would developo the warts that have been
described, I would reduce the right thrust until pulls took the same
amount of right rudder as pushes required left. My guess is that that is
the ideal right thrust setting from which to start fiddling with the
radio.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=623454817-27012005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Regards All,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=623454817-27012005>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT> </P>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org">mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Nat Penton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 27, 2005
12:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Throt/ Rud<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bravo Bob Richards !</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">Bob
Richards</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:15 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Throt/ Rud</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ed,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am a very firm believer (no one will convince me otherwise)
of <STRONG>exactly</STRONG> what you describe. Slipstream effect is
the whole reason we put right thrust in our engines. It has NOTHING
to do with torque, <A
href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ex-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html">P-factor</A>,
or <A
href="http://www.cybercom.net/%7Ecopters/aero/gyro.html">gyroscopic
precession</A>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The issue of transitioning from vertical to horizontal (either
to inverted or upright) is a gyroscopic precession issue. The best
way to counter that is to use lighter weight props turning at lower
rpm -- less spinning mass and less gyroscopic effect.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>P-factor only exists at high angle of attacks, which does not
happen in a vertical climb. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Torque tries to roll the plane, and some schools of thought are
that, to counter the torque-induced roll, the left wing has to lift
more than the right, causing more induced drag on the left. While
this may be true for a lot of planes while taking off, this does not
apply to pattern planes in a vertical climb since both wing panels
would be fighting the torque equally.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gyroscopic precession only occurs when the airplane is moving
around its pitch axis, as when pulling or pushing a corner. It is
most noticeable when the airplane is slow, since there is less
aerodynamic stabilizing force available from the rudder/fin.
IMHO, no throttle-rudder mix is going to correct this. It
<STRONG>might</STRONG> be possible to mix elevator to rudder, and
enable/disable the mix based on throttle position.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When I flew a Cap21 in pattern, I had to use left rudder when
pulling an inside corner at the top of square loops. I had to use a
TON of right rudder when pushing a corner, and this was with about 5
degrees of right thrust.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>IMHO, learn to do it with your thumbs. Practice enough and it
will become automatic. Just my 2CW.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob R.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Edward Skorepa <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:edsko@xmission.com"><edsko@xmission.com></A></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm confused too. I know, I know I
shouldn't argue with someone like chip but I believe the main
reason we're putting right thrust is an asymmetric vertical fin.
On most conventional airplanes the area above thrust line is much
greater then area below. So, the spiraling slip stream will
hit the top portion of the vertical fin from the left pushing tail
to the right thus right thrust. When inverted, the spiraling slip
stream will hit vertical fin from the right because fin is
now on the opposite side and pushes tail to the left. To
straighten the flight path, we need now the left thrust which is
already there. During inverted push ups, why do we need to use
left rudder? The spiraling slip stream misses completely vertical
fin and the right (left when inverted) thrust is causing airplane
to yaw left. If you have a big gasser, turn on smoke, do inverted
push up and watch where the smoke goes. However, Chip's
approach of fixing ! the inverted push ups problem is quite
interesting and I'll try it on my new bird I'm working on right
now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ed</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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