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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think in this case Chuck needs to be
more careful in purchasing his airplane in the first place. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I have no problems with being lenient on
the rules to get the person hooked in Sportsman, but I do believe that when you
start having a National Championship, then everyone needs to be playing by the
same rules. <span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I think is someone
wants to move up to Intermediate then they are already interested in pattern. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>And if they are careful and ask the right
questions, then they will be able to find a slightly used pattern plane that is
legal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I also believe that take offs and landings
in the AMA classes should be scored. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>They are both maneuvers that need to be
executed well to be considered a successful flight. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Arch<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">discussion-request@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">discussion-request@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Gray E Fowler<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 08, 2005
4:26 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">discussion@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules
Survey</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'>Here comes the dreaded weight debate again....</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Consider
this-Anyone in the upper level classes would not be too smart to have a plane
heavier than it needs to be. But, lets pretend there is a hot new
Sportsman named uh lets see..... Chuck. Chuck tears up 401 after 3 contests,
and he is flying his best airplane that most FAI guys would consider a toy (and
I do not mean the "foamie toys" pictured in last months Model
Aviation being held by a guy named "Chuck") and so moving
up to Intermediate halfway thru his first season, last 3 contests were quite a
challenge, BUT he places in 402 anyway!</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>In
the off season, he saves his pennies, keeps his wife happy and gets a used REAL
pattern plane, built by someone who has a slight heavy hand, and alas it weighs
11.5 lbs. Now this here Chuck is good and pumped up and I would place money
that this theoretical person could place at the NATS, but his plane is over
weight!!!!! one more !</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Sorry
Chuck, even though you are flying at a disadvantage, we will not let you play
at the NATS........Oh unless you can spend $2k more on another plane. </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>The
story you have just read is about to be true, once we do not let Chuck fly at
this years NATS. But at least the French FAI rule makers are happy.</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Consider
a weight change. It does not need to be across the board and for the life of me
I cannot imagine why it needs to align with FAI. Chuck will have a 5Kg
plane <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>BY THE TIME HE REACHES FAI-</span></b>and
the French can be happy then<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>.</span></b><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gray Fowler<br>
Principal Chemical Engineer<br>
Composites Engineering</span></font> <br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>"Atwood, Mark"
<atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></span></font></b> <br>
<font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Sent
by: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">discussion-request@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
sans-serif'>02/08/2005 01:47 PM</span></font> <br>
<font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Please
respond to discussion</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><br>
<font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>
To: <<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">discussion@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>></span></font> <br>
<font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>
cc: </span></font> <br>
<font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>
Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules
Survey</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>I have to agree 100% with Dave on this one. I'd also like to add
that in addition to raising the cost...it doesn't acheive the objective.
Any and all sports that have limitations of this type (Sailing comes to
mind with complex formulas that define the class of boat) ALWAYS have one
critical limiting factor. For us it USE to be the engine. We had a
weight restriction...but it was meaningless because you couldn't approach it
with the power options that we had. </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Now,
with unlimited engine size...weight, and in some cases size, has become the
constraining factor.</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In all
cases...there are always those with the talent and money to take the rules to
the limit. We will always be chasing them, and trying to acheive what
they acheive. It's great to say that raising the weight limit will allow
more "stock" models to compete... But my bet is that someone
creative and talented will make use of that rule in a way that others can't
easily follow...and will again have competitive advantage. And as
Dave so aptly pointed out...it will cost the rest of us more money.</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Steve
Maxwell has made the best suggestion to date. I for one have NEVER seen
a sportsman pilot denied admission to an event based on the weight of their
plane. Size, yes (we turned away a few 30% planes for safety reasons) but
never just on weight. In fact...I've never seen ANYONE weight a plane at
any event other than the Nat's finals. So I think we could EASILY acheive
the objective with a simple statement that alters the current
"intent" from one where the CD CAN change the rule...to one that
implies the CD USUALLY changes the rule. </span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I dont
recall Steve's language, but it was simple and to the point so I'll paraphrase...
" CD's often/usually alter (or wave) the weight restriction for the
sportsman class...please contact them for details". </span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>-Mark</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
From:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">discussion-request@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">discussion-request@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>DaveL322@comcast.net<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:01 PM<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'><br>
To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">discussion@nsrca.org</st1:PersonName><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Subject:</span></b> *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey<br>
</span></font><br>
Buddy, <br>
<br>
Deliberately segregating FAI and AMA is counterproductive. We need all
the pattern fliers we can get, and we need a common target for the limited
number of manufacturers and suppliers we have. I would never suggest AMA
pattern rules blindly follow FAI, but there would have to be a huge benefit to <st1:country-region
w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> pattern before I would advocate moving away
from the FAI in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
<br>
<br>
FAI pilots in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> have
made many contributions to AMA pattern in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>
and I think most pattern pilots in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>
would agree that the FAI pilots are a resource to all of pattern in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
Cutting FAI pilots out of AMA pattern issues is losing a resource. And
I think you'd have a hard time doing it in practice - many pilots bounce back
and forth between FAI and Masters - there is no rule against it as they are
different systems with common elements. <br>
<br>
If there is no valid reason to oppose an increase in the weight limit, it seems
strange to me that the majority has repeatedly voted to keep the weight limit
as is. Anyone who chooses to look at the history of the
"limiting" rules for pattern (weight, size, displacement) can pretty
easily see what the net result has been anytime the limits have been increased.
For those not familiar with the rules history of pattern, the most basic
of points I am alluding to is cost - any increase in the limits results in an
increase in the cost of the average pattern plane - not something that is
productive for our event. <br>
<br>
This list and numerous other publications have contained many ideas,
rationales, and discussions opposed to increasing the weight limit for close to
20 years (that I know of). Perhaps you could share your thoughts as to
why those ideas, rationales, and discussions are not valid? <br>
<br>
Regards, <br>
<br>
Dave Lockhart <br>
<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> <br>
<br>
-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
<font size=2 color="#8000ff" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#8000FF'>In a message dated 2/8/2005 8:02:54 AM Central
Standard Time, donramsey@cox-internet.com writes:</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ok
everyone, here's your chance. What would you like to see changed in the
regulations for precision aerobatics? Up the weight limit, change the
box, score takeoff and landings, etc?</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Email
me offline at </span></font><a href="mailto:donramsey@cox-internet.com"><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>donramsey@cox-internet.com</span></font></a><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> with your
ideas.</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Don</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 color="#8000ff" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#8000FF'> </span></font> <br>
<font size=2 color="#8000ff" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#8000FF'>Don</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 color="#8000ff" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#8000FF'>As an after thought it would be interesting
for those who oppose a weight change to state their reasons for opposing it so
the benefits to pattern can be evaluated for each case. I cannot come up
with a valid reason <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>not </span></b>To change
the rule. It would also be interesting to know if opposition comes from a
specific group. Since this change does not apply to FAI it is my opinion that
votes from those in that group should not be used to sway the vote in Any NSRCA
survey that would effect the submission of an AMA rules change proposal since
these do not apply to FAI rules changes. </span></font><br>
<font size=2 color="#8000ff" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#8000FF'>Buddy </span></font> <br>
<font size=2 color="#8000ff" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#8000FF'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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