<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Archie</font>
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Very true. Chuck will be playing by the same rules which is why you will not witness his great talent at the NATS this year unless his grandmother dies and and leaves him a few grand. There is alot to learn and absorb about pattern, and IF he had only known to ask that particular question, then I guess this would not be an issue, but he is in the same boat as most newer guys. Most us do not have budgets that can afford such mistakes, and at the local level no one cares about his 0.5 overweight plane, and he is just glad to have a pattern plane at all. I guess the real problem here is that this guy really could do well at the NATS, but not until he gets another plane, or somehow can spend XXX$$$ to buy expensive components to bring his weight down. <br>
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Gray Fowler<br>
Principal Chemical Engineer<br>
Composites Engineering</font>
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<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Archie Stafford" <rcpattern@comcast.net></b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: discussion-request@nsrca.org</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/08/2005 05:16 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to discussion</font>
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<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</font></table>
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<br><font size=2 color=#000080 face="Arial">I think in this case Chuck needs to be more careful in purchasing his airplane in the first place. I have no problems with being lenient on the rules to get the person hooked in Sportsman, but I do believe that when you start having a National Championship, then everyone needs to be playing by the same rules. I think is someone wants to move up to Intermediate then they are already interested in pattern. And if they are careful and ask the right questions, then they will be able to find a slightly used pattern plane that is legal.</font>
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<p><font size=2 color=#000080 face="Arial">I also believe that take offs and landings in the AMA classes should be scored. They are both maneuvers that need to be executed well to be considered a successful flight. </font>
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<p><font size=2 color=#000080 face="Arial">Arch</font>
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<p><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gray E Fowler<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:26 PM<b><br>
To:</b> discussion@nsrca.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</font>
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Here comes the dreaded weight debate again....</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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Consider this-Anyone in the upper level classes would not be too smart to have a plane heavier than it needs to be. But, lets pretend there is a hot new Sportsman named uh lets see..... Chuck. Chuck tears up 401 after 3 contests, and he is flying his best airplane that most FAI guys would consider a toy (and I do not mean the "foamie toys" pictured in last months Model Aviation being held by a guy named "Chuck") and so moving up to Intermediate halfway thru his first season, last 3 contests were quite a challenge, BUT he places in 402 anyway!</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
In the off season, he saves his pennies, keeps his wife happy and gets a used REAL pattern plane, built by someone who has a slight heavy hand, and alas it weighs 11.5 lbs. Now this here Chuck is good and pumped up and I would place money that this theoretical person could place at the NATS, but his plane is over weight!!!!! one more !</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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Sorry Chuck, even though you are flying at a disadvantage, we will not let you play at the NATS........Oh unless you can spend $2k more on another plane. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
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The story you have just read is about to be true, once we do not let Chuck fly at this years NATS. But at least the French FAI rule makers are happy.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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Consider a weight change. It does not need to be across the board and for the life of me I cannot imagine why it needs to align with FAI. Chuck will have a 5Kg plane <b>BY THE TIME HE REACHES FAI-</b>and the French can be happy then<b>.</b><br>
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Gray Fowler<br>
Principal Chemical Engineer<br>
Composites Engineering</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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<td width=52%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: discussion-request@nsrca.org</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/08/2005 01:47 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Please respond to discussion</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
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To: <discussion@nsrca.org></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
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Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</font></table>
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I have to agree 100% with Dave on this one. I'd also like to add that in addition to raising the cost...it doesn't acheive the objective. Any and all sports that have limitations of this type (Sailing comes to mind with complex formulas that define the class of boat) ALWAYS have one critical limiting factor. For us it USE to be the engine. We had a weight restriction...but it was meaningless because you couldn't approach it with the power options that we had. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
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Now, with unlimited engine size...weight, and in some cases size, has become the constraining factor.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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In all cases...there are always those with the talent and money to take the rules to the limit. We will always be chasing them, and trying to acheive what they acheive. It's great to say that raising the weight limit will allow more "stock" models to compete... But my bet is that someone creative and talented will make use of that rule in a way that others can't easily follow...and will again have competitive advantage. And as Dave so aptly pointed out...it will cost the rest of us more money.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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Steve Maxwell has made the best suggestion to date. I for one have NEVER seen a sportsman pilot denied admission to an event based on the weight of their plane. Size, yes (we turned away a few 30% planes for safety reasons) but never just on weight. In fact...I've never seen ANYONE weight a plane at any event other than the Nat's finals. So I think we could EASILY acheive the objective with a simple statement that alters the current "intent" from one where the CD CAN change the rule...to one that implies the CD USUALLY changes the rule. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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I dont recall Steve's language, but it was simple and to the point so I'll paraphrase... " CD's often/usually alter (or wave) the weight restriction for the sportsman class...please contact them for details". </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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-Mark</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><br>
-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<b>On Behalf Of </b>DaveL322@comcast.net</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:01 PM<b><br>
To:</b> discussion@nsrca.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
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Buddy, <br>
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Deliberately segregating FAI and AMA is counterproductive. We need all the pattern fliers we can get, and we need a common target for the limited number of manufacturers and suppliers we have. I would never suggest AMA pattern rules blindly follow FAI, but there would have to be a huge benefit to US pattern before I would advocate moving away from the FAI in the US. <br>
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FAI pilots in the US have made many contributions to AMA pattern in the US and I think most pattern pilots in the US would agree that the FAI pilots are a resource to all of pattern in the US. Cutting FAI pilots out of AMA pattern issues is losing a resource. And I think you'd have a hard time doing it in practice - many pilots bounce back and forth between FAI and Masters - there is no rule against it as they are different systems with common elements. <br>
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If there is no valid reason to oppose an increase in the weight limit, it seems strange to me that the majority has repeatedly voted to keep the weight limit as is. Anyone who chooses to look at the history of the "limiting" rules for pattern (weight, size, displacement) can pretty easily see what the net result has been anytime the limits have been increased. For those not familiar with the rules history of pattern, the most basic of points I am alluding to is cost - any increase in the limits results in an increase in the cost of the average pattern plane - not something that is productive for our event. <br>
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This list and numerous other publications have contained many ideas, rationales, and discussions opposed to increasing the weight limit for close to 20 years (that I know of). Perhaps you could share your thoughts as to why those ideas, rationales, and discussions are not valid? <br>
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Regards, <br>
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Dave Lockhart </font><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>DaveL322@comcast.net</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
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In a message dated 2/8/2005 8:02:54 AM Central Standard Time, donramsey@cox-internet.com writes:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Ok everyone, here's your chance. What would you like to see changed in the regulations for precision aerobatics? Up the weight limit, change the box, score takeoff and landings, etc?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
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Email me offline at </font><a href="mailto:donramsey@cox-internet.com"><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>donramsey@cox-internet.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial"> with your ideas.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
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Don</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
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Don</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=#8000ff face="Arial"><br>
As an after thought it would be interesting for those who oppose a weight change to state their reasons for opposing it so the benefits to pattern can be evaluated for each case. I cannot come up with a valid reason <b>not </b>To change the rule. It would also be interesting to know if opposition comes from a specific group. Since this change does not apply to FAI it is my opinion that votes from those in that group should not be used to sway the vote in Any NSRCA survey that would effect the submission of an AMA rules change proposal since these do not apply to FAI rules changes. <br>
Buddy </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=#8000ff face="Arial"><br>
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