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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Todd,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Always nice to see some quantified
data.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As a point of reference, I built a pair of Dick
Hanson EMCs a few years ago - full 2M planes. Glass fuse with balsa
crutch, clear canopy with pilot and details, aluminum landing gear w/ FG
wheelpants, foam/balsa wings. CF pipe and wingtube, and 2 6v720mah Nimh
batteries w/ 2 switches, all flushmount / hidden hatches/fasteners. 10.75
lbs. Plenty strong to make it through 1500 flights of FAI sequences.
If I built them again, I think with a little work I could get them down to 10.25
lbs, maybe 10 even.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am currently flying a pair of Vivats which are
basically a FG/balsa/FG composite with limited CF and Kevlar
reinforcement. My #2 plane uses an aluminum pipe and 2 Nimh batteries and
2 switches - it is 9 lbs 13 oz and all paint. I think I could trim it down
to 9.5 lbs if I wanted to.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If the 11 lb envelope is being pushed (and I think
it is for some of the planes out there), it is a result of allowing unlimited
displacement engines. So from this point -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- do nothing and accept the idea that competitors
will always push the limits, or,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- increase the weight limit, and watch the cost and
complexity escalate another level and eventually push the new limits,
or,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- re-instate a displacement limit, and reduce the
cost and complexity, and push the displacement limit which is arguably a safer
limit to push.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It makes sense to me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tschmidt@classicnet.net href="mailto:tschmidt@classicnet.net">Todd
Schmidt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:14
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [SPAM] Re: *SPAM* Re: Rules
Survey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I really don't see how raising the weight limit
to 12 or 12.5 would increase the cost of pattern as long as the size
limitations are in place. As stated by several, the materials used in
today's ships to keep them underweight is driving the
cost up. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Standard Glass Cloth Composite
Construction</STRONG> ($5-$7 per yard) You cannot make
a 2M fuse strong <STRONG>AND</STRONG> light enough to make weight
using this stuff. You can probably come close, but it'll be a noodle that
won't last and <STRONG>in the long
run </STRONG>will cost simply because you're plane won't
last.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, now you see 2M planes made with Kevlar ($44
per yard) and Carbon ($80 per yard) in order to keep weight
down. Not only are these materials more expensive, they're harder to work
with, which increases labor costs. No wonder ZN and PL kits are so
expensive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I make my own composite fuselages using a
mixture of glass, Kevlar, carbon and foam much like the ZN and PL
kits. The material cost for one fuselage will run between $200 to $250
and take approx.12 hours of labor to lay-up. I'd hate to try and make a living
in the US making these things!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The latest is the TAVS fuselage. Light,
Stiff, and <STRONG>FRAGILE</STRONG>. This is a new technology driven
by the weight limit IMO. Some are failing and we the consumer bare the
price and inconvenience of being the R&D for
the manufactures. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bottom line, the 11 pound weight limit is the
same as when our birds were much smaller. I think we have pushed this
envelope to its limit and it proving to be costly and unsafe.
Just my opinion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Todd Schmidt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=atwoodm@paragon-inc.com
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Atwood, Mark</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:47
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules
Survey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have to agree
100% with Dave on this one. I'd also like to add that in addition to
raising the cost...it doesn't acheive the objective. Any and all
sports that have limitations of this type (Sailing comes to mind with
complex formulas that define the class of boat) ALWAYS have one critical
limiting factor. For us it USE to be the engine. We had a weight
restriction...but it was meaningless because you couldn't approach it with
the power options that we had. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, with
unlimited engine size...weight, and in some cases size, has become the
constraining factor.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial size=2>In all
cases...there are always those with the talent and money to take the rules
to the limit. We will always be chasing them, and trying to acheive
what they acheive. It's great to say that raising the weight
limit will allow more "stock" models to compete... But my bet is
that someone creative and talented will make use of that rule in a way that
others can't easily follow...and will again have competitive
advantage. And as Dave so aptly pointed out...it will cost
the rest of us more money.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Steve Maxwell
has made the best suggestion to date. I for one have NEVER seen
a sportsman pilot denied admission to an event based on the weight of their
plane. Size, yes (we turned away a few 30% planes for safety reasons)
but never just on weight. In fact...I've never seen ANYONE weight a
plane at any event other than the Nat's finals. So I think we
could EASILY acheive the objective with a simple statement that alters the
current "intent" from one where the CD CAN change the rule...to one that
implies the CD USUALLY changes the rule. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial size=2>I dont recall
Steve's language, but it was simple and to the point so I'll paraphrase... "
CD's often/usually alter (or wave) the weight restriction for the sportsman
class...please contact them for details". </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=327051919-08022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2>-Mark</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>DaveL322@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 08,
2005 1:01 PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> *SPAM*
Re: Rules Survey<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Buddy,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Deliberately segregating FAI and AMA is counterproductive. We
need all the pattern fliers we can get, and we need a common target for the
limited number of manufacturers and suppliers we have. I would never
suggest AMA pattern rules blindly follow FAI, but there would have to be a
huge benefit to US pattern before I would advocate moving away from the FAI
in the US.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>FAI pilots in the US have made many contributions to AMA pattern in the
US and I think most pattern pilots in the US would agree that the FAI pilots
are a resource to all of pattern in the US. Cutting FAI pilots out of
AMA pattern issues is losing a resource. And I think you'd have a hard
time doing it in practice - many pilots bounce back and forth between FAI
and Masters - there is no rule against it as they are different systems with
common elements.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If there is no valid reason to oppose an increase in the weight limit,
it seems strange to me that the majority has repeatedly voted to keep the
weight limit as is. Anyone who chooses to look at the history of the
"limiting" rules for pattern (weight, size, displacement) can pretty easily
see what the net result has been anytime the limits have been
increased. For those not familiar with the rules history of pattern,
the most basic of points I am alluding to is cost - any increase in the
limits results in an increase in the cost of the average pattern plane - not
something that is productive for our event.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This list and numerous other publications have contained many ideas,
rationales, and discussions opposed to increasing the weight limit for close
to 20 years (that I know of). Perhaps you could share your thoughts as
to why those ideas, rationales, and discussions are not valid?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 2/8/2005 8:02:54 AM Central Standard Time,
donramsey@cox-internet.com writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Ok everyone, here's your chance. What would you
like to see changed in the regulations for precision aerobatics?
Up the weight limit, change the box, score takeoff and landings,
etc?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Email me offline at <A
title=mailto:donramsey@cox-internet.com
href="mailto:donramsey@cox-internet.com">donramsey@cox-internet.com</A>
with your ideas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don</DIV>
<DIV>As an after thought it would be interesting for those who oppose a
weight change to state their reasons for opposing it so the benefits to
pattern can be evaluated for each case. I cannot come up with a
valid reason <STRONG>not </STRONG>To change the rule. It would also be
interesting to know if opposition comes from a specific group. Since this
change does not apply to FAI it is my opinion that votes from those in
that group should not be used to sway the vote in Any NSRCA survey that
would effect the submission of an AMA rules change proposal since
these do not apply to FAI rules changes. </DIV>
<DIV>Buddy </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>