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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gray,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm behind you on this one. No answer that
I've heard, against raising the weight limit, makes a bit of sense to me.
I know that I'm a newbie, however, common sense still plays a major part in my
theoretical revelations.( What do you think about that term?) The only
reason I have heard against the limit change was that "someone with enough money
could make the weight limit change work in their favor, making all of us chase
them, again." Are you kidding me? Those with the money are already
doing that. To have a competitive plane for the upper end of Masters or
FAI it already costs somewhere between 4 and 6 grand, and that's probably
conservative. The main group of Pattern fliers are going to keep their
planes as light as possible. A half pound of extra weight isn't going to
make the plane less safe, only fly heavier. So what!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken Thompson</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>NSRCA 3646</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gfowler@Raytheon.com href="mailto:gfowler@Raytheon.com">Gray E
Fowler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules
Survey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Archie</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>Very true. Chuck will be playing by the same rules
which is why you will not witness his great talent at the NATS this year
unless his grandmother dies and and leaves him a few grand. There is alot to
learn and absorb about pattern, and IF he had only known to ask that
particular question, then I guess this would not be an issue, but he is in the
same boat as most newer guys. Most us do not have budgets that can
afford such mistakes, and at the local level no one cares about his 0.5
overweight plane, and he is just glad to have a pattern plane at all. I guess
the real problem here is that this guy really could do well at the NATS, but
not until he gets another plane, or somehow can spend XXX$$$ to buy expensive
components to bring his weight down. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Gray
Fowler<BR>Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Composites Engineering</FONT>
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<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"Archie Stafford"
<rcpattern@comcast.net></B></FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1>Sent by: discussion-request@nsrca.org</FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>02/08/2005 05:16 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond to discussion</FONT> <BR></P>
<TD><FONT face=Arial size=1> </FONT><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1> To:
<discussion@nsrca.org></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1> cc:
</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>
Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules
Survey</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080
size=2>I think in this case Chuck needs to be more careful in purchasing his
airplane in the first place. I have no problems with being lenient on
the rules to get the person hooked in Sportsman, but I do believe that when
you start having a National Championship, then everyone needs to be playing by
the same rules. I think is someone wants to move up to Intermediate then
they are already interested in pattern. And if they are careful and ask
the right questions, then they will be able to find a slightly used pattern
plane that is legal.</FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>I also believe that take offs and
landings in the AMA classes should be scored. They are both maneuvers
that need to be executed well to be considered a successful flight.
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Arch</FONT>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2></FONT>
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<P><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Gray E
Fowler<B><BR>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:26 PM<B><BR>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<B><BR>Subject:</B> RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</FONT>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Here comes the dreaded weight debate
again....</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Consider this-Anyone in the upper level classes
would not be too smart to have a plane heavier than it needs to be. But,
lets pretend there is a hot new Sportsman named uh lets see..... Chuck. Chuck
tears up 401 after 3 contests, and he is flying his best airplane that most
FAI guys would consider a toy (and I do not mean the "foamie toys" pictured in
last months Model Aviation being held by a guy named "Chuck") and
so moving up to Intermediate halfway thru his first season, last 3 contests
were quite a challenge, BUT he places in 402 anyway!</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>In the
off season, he saves his pennies, keeps his wife happy and gets a used REAL
pattern plane, built by someone who has a slight heavy hand, and alas it
weighs 11.5 lbs. Now this here Chuck is good and pumped up and I would place
money that this theoretical person could place at the NATS, but his plane is
over weight!!!!! one more !</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Sorry Chuck, even though you are
flying at a disadvantage, we will not let you play at the NATS........Oh
unless you can spend $2k more on another plane. </FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The
story you have just read is about to be true, once we do not let Chuck fly at
this years NATS. But at least the French FAI rule makers are
happy.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Consider a weight change. It does not need to be
across the board and for the life of me I cannot imagine why it needs to align
with FAI. Chuck will have a 5Kg plane <B>BY THE TIME HE REACHES
FAI-</B>and the French can be happy then<B>.</B><BR><BR><BR><BR>Gray
Fowler<BR>Principal Chemical Engineer<BR>Composites Engineering</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT>
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<TD width="52%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"Atwood, Mark"
<atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></B></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>Sent by:
discussion-request@nsrca.org</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>02/08/2005 01:47 PM</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1><BR>Please respond to discussion</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
<TD width="45%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>
</FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR> To:
<discussion@nsrca.org></FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1><BR> cc:
</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1><BR> Subject:
RE: *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><BR>I have to agree 100% with Dave on this one. I'd also like to
add that in addition to raising the cost...it doesn't acheive the objective.
Any and all sports that have limitations of this type (Sailing comes to
mind with complex formulas that define the class of boat) ALWAYS have one
critical limiting factor. For us it USE to be the engine. We had a
weight restriction...but it was meaningless because you couldn't approach it
with the power options that we had. </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><BR> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Now, with unlimited engine
size...weight, and in some cases size, has become the constraining
factor.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR> </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><BR>In all cases...there are always those with the talent
and money to take the rules to the limit. We will always be chasing
them, and trying to acheive what they acheive. It's great to say that
raising the weight limit will allow more "stock" models to compete...
But my bet is that someone creative and talented will make use of that rule in
a way that others can't easily follow...and will again have competitive
advantage. And as Dave so aptly pointed out...it will cost the
rest of us more money.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
<BR> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Steve Maxwell has made the best
suggestion to date. I for one have NEVER seen a sportsman pilot denied
admission to an event based on the weight of their plane. Size, yes (we
turned away a few 30% planes for safety reasons) but never just on weight.
In fact...I've never seen ANYONE weight a plane at any event other than
the Nat's finals. So I think we could EASILY acheive the objective with
a simple statement that alters the current "intent" from one where the CD CAN
change the rule...to one that implies the CD USUALLY changes the rule.
</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR> </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><BR>I dont recall Steve's language, but it was simple and to
the point so I'll paraphrase... " CD's often/usually alter (or wave) the
weight restriction for the sportsman class...please contact them for details".
</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR> </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><BR>-Mark</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
</FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><BR>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf
Of </B>DaveL322@comcast.net</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:01 PM<B><BR>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<B><BR>Subject:</B> *SPAM* Re: Rules Survey</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR><BR>Buddy, <BR> <BR>Deliberately
segregating FAI and AMA is counterproductive. We need all the pattern
fliers we can get, and we need a common target for the limited number of
manufacturers and suppliers we have. I would never suggest AMA pattern
rules blindly follow FAI, but there would have to be a huge benefit to US
pattern before I would advocate moving away from the FAI in the US.
<BR> <BR>FAI pilots in the US have made many contributions to AMA pattern
in the US and I think most pattern pilots in the US would agree that the FAI
pilots are a resource to all of pattern in the US. Cutting FAI pilots
out of AMA pattern issues is losing a resource. And I think you'd have a
hard time doing it in practice - many pilots bounce back and forth between FAI
and Masters - there is no rule against it as they are different systems with
common elements. <BR> <BR>If there is no valid reason to oppose an
increase in the weight limit, it seems strange to me that the majority has
repeatedly voted to keep the weight limit as is. Anyone who chooses to
look at the history of the "limiting" rules for pattern (weight, size,
displacement) can pretty easily see what the net result has been anytime the
limits have been increased. For those not familiar with the rules
history of pattern, the most basic of points I am alluding to is cost - any
increase in the limits results in an increase in the cost of the average
pattern plane - not something that is productive for our event.
<BR> <BR>This list and numerous other publications have contained many
ideas, rationales, and discussions opposed to increasing the weight limit for
close to 20 years (that I know of). Perhaps you could share your
thoughts as to why those ideas, rationales, and discussions are not valid?
<BR> <BR>Regards, <BR><BR>Dave Lockhart </FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=3><U><BR></U></FONT><A
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=blue
size=3><U>DaveL322@comcast.net</U></FONT></A><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3> <BR> <BR>-------------- Original message --------------
</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#8000ff size=2><BR>In a message dated 2/8/2005
8:02:54 AM Central Standard Time, donramsey@cox-internet.com
writes:</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><BR>Ok everyone, here's your chance. What would you like to see
changed in the regulations for precision aerobatics? Up the weight
limit, change the box, score takeoff and landings, etc?</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Email
me offline at </FONT><A href="mailto:donramsey@cox-internet.com"><FONT
face=Arial color=blue size=2><U>donramsey@cox-internet.com</U></FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial size=2> with your ideas.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Don</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#8000ff
size=2><BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#8000ff size=2><BR>Don</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#8000ff size=2><BR>As an after thought
it would be interesting for those who oppose a weight change to state their
reasons for opposing it so the benefits to pattern can be evaluated for each
case. I cannot come up with a valid reason <B>not </B>To change the
rule. It would also be interesting to know if opposition comes from a specific
group. Since this change does not apply to FAI it is my opinion that votes
from those in that group should not be used to sway the vote in Any NSRCA
survey that would effect the submission of an AMA rules change proposal since
these do not apply to FAI rules changes. <BR>Buddy </FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#8000ff
size=2><BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
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