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<DIV>Me three.</DIV>
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<DIV>My eyes have never been that good, and they were pushed to the limits in the pre-turnaround days. 1/2 Reverse Cubans were pretty much the favored turnaround - use the backside of the loop to build up speed and get a nice long straight run into the next maneuver. I could see the plane pretty good on the backside of the Cuban, but as the plane came to level, I could hardly see the wings - but I would announce the next maneuver anyway - and then announce "starting now" as soon as I could see the wings clearly.</DIV>
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<DIV>Dave</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dean is correct. I was at that same event doing the very first noise checks to prepare for the 83 F3A World Champs later that year in Pensacola. I remember the remarks about flying so far out... <BR><BR>You pretty much had to fly out to keep those 100+ MPH rockets in sight! They were smaller models by today's standards, but we didn't seem to fly them in any closer.... </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony Stillman<BR>Radio South<BR>3702 N. Pace Blvd.<BR>Pensacola, FL 32505<BR>1-800-962-7802<BR><A href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/">www.radiosouthrc.com</A></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:52 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pattern Box Rules (discussion)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Jim,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I'm really not looking to argue with you, but that's not where we used to fly, back pre-Turnaround.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Oh yeah, some of us flew close in, and there were regional variations (you couldn't score for beans on Long Island twenty five years ago if you didn't do your rolls over the runway at less than 50 feet) but by and large we flew right at 150 meters and maybe farther for some tall stuff. Most flew bottoms well over 100', and tops on some stuff often violated the 45 degree maneuver box a bit. Look at it another way, we were not flying smaller, with our 120 MPH planes, and the square loop with 1/2 rolls was supposed to stay under 45 degrees. They were flown far out.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Now a statement like that, I need to prove. The last non turnaround Team Trials was held in '83 at Rough River Falls Ky. There is a road parallel to the runway and it was measured at about 175 meters away. We were asked, midway through the contest, to stop flying over and past the road. There were businesses and houses there.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Early after Turnaround, the same was true, on the same site. Nowadays, there is still a contest there. OK ... who has attended that contest the last couple of years? Do they still have a constant problem with road overflight?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Turnaround really has reduced our noise footprint.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>J.Oddino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Pattern Box Rules (discussion)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think Gray has broken the code but doesn't know it. The reason people fly too far out is so they can stay in the box. In the old days we'd fly the maneuvers where the judges could see them. We probably never flew more than 100 meters out or over 150 meters high. There was a 60 degree "box" (really a triangle) but all maneuvers were center maneuvers and easy to judge as far as positioning. Turnaround required that the maneuvers be moved out. It was supposed to reduce the noise footprint but did the opposite. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The box should be a box and the horizontal distance at 75 degrees ought to be the same as it is at 60. I haven't gone through the numbers but I'll bet it is easier for all to see the plane at the edges of a rectangular box if it is flown in closer. The objective ought to be to keep the footprint small and to make it easier for the judges and pilots to see the airplane. That's my take.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JimO</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gfowler@raytheon.com href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E Fowler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pattern Box Rules (discussion)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>My vote would be to up the penalty for flying too far out. Hard to tell if it is 150 or 175, but 200 meters to me is a ZERO...outta the box. But I can only give a serious 2pt downgrade. It bothers me when people fly 200-225 meters out with a downgrade. Problem here of course is the FAI's are about the worse offenders -i.e. can't do a rolling circle within 175 meters-fly it right or get rid of it. Considering that us low class types follow their lead (butt sniffin' in reality) no wonder I see 250 meter patterns.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>The box dimensions are just fine. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></body></html>