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<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Jim,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I'm
really not looking to argue with you, but that's not where we used to fly, back
pre-Turnaround.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Oh
yeah, some of us flew close in, and there were regional variations (you couldn't
score for beans on Long Island twenty five years ago if you didn't do your rolls
over the runway at less than 50 feet) but by and large we flew right at 150
meters and maybe farther for some tall stuff. Most flew bottoms well
over 100', and tops on some stuff often violated the 45 degree
maneuver box a bit. Look at it another way, we were not flying smaller, with our
120 MPH planes, and the square loop with 1/2 rolls was supposed to stay under 45
degrees. They were flown far out.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Now a
statement like that, I need to prove. The last non turnaround Team Trials was
held in '83 at Rough River Falls Ky. There is a road parallel to the runway and
it was measured at about 175 meters away. We were asked, midway through the
contest, to stop flying over and past the road. There were businesses and houses
there.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Early
after Turnaround, the same was true, on the same site. Nowadays, there is still
a contest there. OK ... who has attended that contest the last couple of years?
Do they still have a constant problem with road overflight?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Turnaround really has reduced our noise footprint.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=624463717-03032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>J.Oddino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Pattern Box Rules
(discussion)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think Gray has broken the code but doesn't know
it. The reason people fly too far out is so they can stay in the
box. In the old days we'd fly the maneuvers where the judges could see
them. We probably never flew more than 100 meters out or over 150 meters
high. There was a 60 degree "box" (really a triangle) but all maneuvers
were center maneuvers and easy to judge as far as positioning.
Turnaround required that the maneuvers be moved out. It was supposed
to reduce the noise footprint but did the opposite. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The box should be a box and the horizontal
distance at 75 degrees ought to be the same as it is at 60. I haven't
gone through the numbers but I'll bet it is easier for all to see the plane at
the edges of a rectangular box if it is flown in closer. The
objective ought to be to keep the footprint small and to make it easier
for the judges and pilots to see the airplane. That's my
take.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JimO</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gfowler@raytheon.com href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E
Fowler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Pattern Box Rules
(discussion)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>My vote would be to up the
penalty for flying too far out. Hard to tell if it is 150 or 175, but
200 meters to me is a ZERO...outta the box. But I can only give a serious
2pt downgrade. It bothers me when people fly 200-225 meters out with a
downgrade. Problem here of course is the FAI's are about the worse offenders
-i.e. can't do a rolling circle within 175 meters-fly it right or get rid of
it. Considering that us low class types follow their lead (butt sniffin' in
reality) no wonder I see 250 meter patterns.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>The box dimensions are just fine.
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