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<DIV><FONT color=#000000>I've done this in the past at our contest. We asked the
judges when, they completed a round, to judge 1-2 fliers from the class
below the one they were judging to give the guys a clue how well or badly they
stacked up against the current crop of fliers in the class above them. Worked
well for us.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=BUDDYonRC@aol.com
href="mailto:BUDDYonRC@aol.com">BUDDYonRC@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:34
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Rules
Changes----Advancement</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#8000ff size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What about letting him start in any class he feels comfortable in with
the stipulation that his first year back he will not be eligible and will
not accumulate points for the DC in that class if it is a class that is a
lower class than the one he left. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> I think there is also merit in letting someone move up for a
contest to test their skills without loosing the option of moving back down,
If they have gained the skill required for the higher class they will most
likely stay there but if they havent and are forced to stay in the higher
class they may become discouraged and quit.</DIV>
<DIV>Buddy</DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>Mark, although most people don't park in a class, I have experienced
a couple instances where a guy actually wins the DC in his class one
year, takes the next year off for whatever reason, then he returns back in
his old class. I appreciate the fact that he returned and like the added
attendance, but some of his fellow competitors may not agree.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What I am saying is a Checks and Balances system needs to be in place
such that this type of situation is controlled. I admit it doesn't happen
often and may not be viewed as a big deal by the higher class pilots, but it
raises the eyebrows of the guys it affects. At present the policing is
supposed to be done by the DVP. As a past DVP, I didn't care for the idea of
telling someone when to move. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The DVPs need a better tool. At the same time, the tool needs to
be flexible enough so that that the guys without enough skill aren't forced
up. I've seen this situation also. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Careful schedule design and more frequent change may alleviate some of
the concern. The parkers could, in effect, start fresh every year, just as
the new guys entering a class. That places different burden on the group
designing schedules and on the AMA CB approving them. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>regards</DIV>
<DIV>MattK</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/8/2005 8:38:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
DaveL322@comcast.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>Mark,<BR><BR>It is rare and an exception - I guess I don't see the
harm in keeping a rule<BR>around that would give "us" some teeth to
prevent a trophy hog.<BR><BR>I am a little concerned (as MattK) that if we
totally deleted the point<BR>system, we might encourage a trophy
hog.<BR><BR>I'm thinking we have room to adjust the point system without
deleting it.<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From:
"Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><BR>To:
<discussion@nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:07
PM<BR>Subject: RE: Rules
Changes----Advancement<BR><BR><BR>Dave,<BR><BR>Have you actually
experienced any "trophy hogs"? Maybe I'm naïve, but I<BR>haven't
really experienced this. We've on rare occasion had someone
"hang"<BR>in a class for an extra half season in hopes of doing well at
the Nats<BR>before moving up, but even that's been rare.<BR><BR>We always
talk/worry about the trophy hog, but I guess I see that as a<BR>hollow
fear from my end. Just curious what you've actually experienced
in<BR>the sandbagging ranks.<BR><BR>Mark<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] On<BR>Behalf Of David
Lockhart<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:42 PM<BR>To:
discussion@nsrca.org<BR>Subject: Fw: Rules Changes----Advancement<BR><BR>I
agree with Matt that changes in this area should be made with
caution.<BR><BR>I like the idea that a pilot could fly a higher class for
fun and to test<BR>the waters, and then drop back to their regular
class.<BR><BR>I like the idea that somebody having an off year (reduced
time or equipment<BR>in a given year) can drop back a class to make it
easier for them to compete<BR>and have fun.<BR><BR>I have no problem with
a pilot "demoting" themselves to stay in the event<BR>and have fun (so
long as they don't end up perpetually at the top of their<BR>new chosen
class).<BR><BR>I think very few people are interested in forcing a pilot
to "move up"<BR>simply because they accumulated enough points - pilots
should move up when<BR>they have aquired the skills to fly in the next
class, and when they are<BR>clearly superior to others in their class -
ie, they are sand-baggers /<BR>trophy hogs which I don't think are good
for the event.<BR><BR>The point system is rarely used - but I think it
would be easy enough to<BR>enforce - most NSRCA Districts track points for
the annual District Champs<BR>using some kind of system. It wouldn't
be too hard to use data captured in<BR>the District Champs tracking to
figure out AMA advancement points. I think<BR>we are fortunate that
most pilots do move up at appropriate times, but<BR>having a mechanism in
place to pressure a few exceptions is a nice option to<BR>have. I
would absolutely support using the AMA advancement point system
to<BR>force a pilot to move up who clearly belonged in a higher class, but
stayed<BR>put to be a trophy hog.<BR><BR>To that end, I think the point
system should remain on the books - and maybe<BR>we could modify it such
that it would be more likely to force trophy hogs to<BR>move up, and less
likely to ever push a career guy out of his class. There<BR>are a
number of ways that could be done.<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>----- Original
Message -----<BR>From: Rcmaster199@aol.com<BR>To:
discussion@nsrca.org<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:08 PM<BR>Subject:
Re: Rules Changes----Advancement<BR><BR><BR>I believe that this may open a
different can of worms. It's true that some<BR>guys attend contests simply
for the fun and camaraderie of the flying, but<BR>there is a whole nother
set of troops that attends to compete. In my<BR>opinion, this is the
largest of the two, by wide margin. These folks want to<BR><BR>win, place
or show and really try hard to do their best. The former group<BR>may not
care as much about doing its best; just being there is good enough.<BR>But
it is still an extremely important group nontheless.<BR><BR>It seems to me
that there are a bunch of guys, (Masters in D3 is a good<BR>example) that
are very good in their present class(most of us are quite<BR>evenly
matched), and some of these may decide to drop down a class and
park<BR>for a while. Taking that skill level down to Advanced could
demoralize the<BR>Advanced level guys that want to really compete, and
could actually have the<BR>exact opposite effect from that desired. I
wouldn't want any Advanced<BR>competitor to leave the sport because of an
infusion of Masters class guys<BR>re-entering the class<BR><BR>We agree on
the fact that the points system is silly and unenforceable.<BR><BR>Having
said all that, I wouldn't be aversed to a trial run of such a
rule.<BR>Reconvene after the trial period was over and make a decision on
its<BR>success--failure. Then make a final decision and have buy-in from
the CB up<BR>front to either make a change, or not. Having CB buy-in up
front will<BR>alleviate some of the acremonious debate we have seen in
past issues.<BR><BR>I recommend caution either way. This indeed is
unchartered territory, at<BR>least in my 27 years, and demands careful
thought. I like the fact that the<BR>committee is thinking in different
and challenging ways to improve the sport<BR>for everyone, eventhough THIS
committee's charter is to build schedules and<BR>not
rules.<BR><BR><BR>MattK<BR><BR>PS- one more thought on this: it may turn
out that no self respecting<BR>Masters competitor will move down to
Advanced, or Advanced down to<BR>Intermediate. Then this suggested
approach could work. Convincing the AMA CB<BR>will be the
trick<BR><BR><BR><BR>In a message dated 3/8/2005 4:20:51 PM Eastern
Standard Time,<BR>patternrules@earthlink.net writes:<BR>From: Troy A.
Newman<BR>To: discussion@nsrca.org<BR>Sent: 3/8/2005 2:18:31
PM<BR>Subject: [SPAM] Rules changes Advancement<BR><BR><BR>Buddy,<BR>I
have been really quiet lately. I don't think the changes you are
looking<BR>at are going to increase pattern participation. The weight and
box limits<BR>in my opinion are good and don't need jacking
with......<BR><BR>I know you and Don are working hard at it. We on the
sequence committee are<BR>as well. I don't think changing the box is going
to help us. I really don't<BR>think changes to the weights or sizes is
going to help us....<BR><BR>I want to weigh in here so to speak on
something that I feel will help<BR>pattern grow in changes to the rule
book. I feel most changes to the rule<BR>book are going to make us more
elite or a more secret way you have to do<BR>things. Guys that are even in
our ranks don't read the rules so why make<BR>them even more
specialized..and so on.<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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