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<DIV><SPAN class=895195813-03082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Eric
are you talking Nats only?? Charlie</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> discussion-request@nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Grow
Pattern<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:56 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Performance Judging? (back to
original discussion) <BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The need to train judges is paramount. I use the
word training because you can teach a student all about driving but training
them in a car does so much more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I with Rick on all of this measurement stuff.
It's both after the fact and if not done properly will create judges who will
not want to be outside of the bandwidth or normalcy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You can train a judge on each schedule and class
(FAI has different scoring units). If you were trained to judge by the
schedules you would have a dossier of downgrades that you would be ready to
use. You would be practiced in the downgrade techniques fro simple and
complex maneuvers. They class you fly would become irrelevant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A field session a dvd, video work at the field,
you name it would make a huge difference. The NSRCA needs leaders who will do
this work. Lamar is working at building up the treasury so that we can invest
in this activity and promotional programs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We still need full-time judges. If you are a
list-reader and would still like to be involved as a judge only, please give
me a call 856/988-9184.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Full-time judges would be a great addition to our
training and certification classes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Eric.</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rickwallace45@hotmail.com
href="mailto:rickwallace45@hotmail.com">Rick Wallace</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:13
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Performance Judging? (back
to original discussion) </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>(Back to Jim's original line of discussion...) </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>How does one compare judging results when (as in most local
contests) there are only 2 judges per round/class? When there's a spread,
which judge is right? In a world where the judges oare often the 'best
available' rather than ones who meet a standard, is there any value in such
a comparison? </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>For that matter, when there are three judges and one's score
is significantly different from another, do we assume (with or without
knowing the identities of the judges concerned) that the one 'different'
judge is wrong? If so, why?</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Is it more or less significant when one judge's score is
different than the others' in ONE maneuver rather than across the entire
flight? </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Eric has made great points in his points on this topic -
especially about the fact that two judges will focus on different aspects of
a maneuver, but frequently give very similar scores - for overtly different
reasons. </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>
<DIV class=RTE>FWIW, some personal info on scores at the recent Nats (from a
first year Masters Guy who finished REAL close to the bottom of the pack -
and deserved to)</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>- One of my rounds had a spread across the three judges
of more than 110 points. (Maybe some non-zero 'mercy' scores here? who
knows?) </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>- As a first time FAI Finals judge, one of the fnalists
volunteered the information that his score spread for the round I
judged was 11 or 12 points across 5 judges... <BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of comparing the
scores of a panel of judges -- without knowing their background, flying
experience, judging experience, etc - and assuming that the 'low' guy is
automatically wrong. -- especially if this practice is
institutionalized, and is recorded as 'facts' in the files of some or all of
the judges concerned. </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>It seems that recollections of my college statistics courses
reminds me that this line of thinking will result not in recognition of the
best absolute standard, but rather in creating a de facto standard of
mediocrity... </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>My gut says that the 'right' answer, unfortunately, is </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> - A REAL set of standards about what the
rules say and mean - and Don seems well on the way to getting that
done</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> - An effective classroom instruction plan that
makes those rules clear (and again, Don has done a great job in his 2005
Judge Certification packages for students and instructors) </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> - A REAL judge teaching program -that would
involve practical exercise / live judging followed by discussion after each
maneuver (lots of fuel burned there!). This is the part that seems to need
the most progress. </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Understand the pain of driving hundreds of miles and
not getting reasonable feedback on one's flights... especially in
a world where we, the pilots, are judging each others' performance...
</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE> </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>just my $.02... </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Rick<BR><BR>>
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