<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Falcon Batteries <A
href="http://www.falconbatteries.com/">http://www.falconbatteries.com/</A>
has a Pack Analyzer that's a switched digital voltmeter with a ribbon lead and
connectors for looking at cell (P) groupings. I don't think this is on their
website yet, give them a call. (They also have a nice cell
balancer.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean Pappas</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 18, 2005 1:15
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Discussion List
(Batteries)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Rich,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Yeah, at 70A, you are going to use every little bit of 4.0 AHr. That's
based on my flying P07.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You
need a bare minimum of 5 AH so you aren't drawing the battery down too
far.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
tested the FMA discharge protection module, for a while. It's a neat item,
though too heavy for much of us, and the connectors are not rated for our
currents.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It
shuts the throttle down if <U>any one</U> cell hits 3.0V.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>With
some disassembnly and connecvtor replacement, it would be a great safety
item!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
Skyvolt balancing charger is a dandy item, though. I will be using it
hereafter. I intentionally unbalanced a pack, and put it on: voila, charged
and balanced with no extra effort.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005></SPAN><SPAN
class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I have to make
up an adapter to allow me to hook a TP style balancer connector and Deans
Ultra combo to its special output connector.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
also want to put together a rig so I can look at each cell voltage,
conveniently, at the end of a flight.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It
doesn't need to be done every flight, but often enough to see if a cell keeps
coming up weak. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That
would be replacement time.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>more
to come,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=426170519-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Richard Strickland<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 18, 2005
12:58 PM<BR><B>To:</B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
Discussion List (Batteries)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gray, Dean,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>While my experience wasn't the greatest--it
really wasn't all that bad once we had the bugs worked out. BTW, it
was a Hacker system like Jason's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One of the issues was to determine how cool the
batteries needed to be before putting them back on charge; another was to
make sure you were not over or under charging. Another was to make
sure they were balanced. But for me it came down to weight and
longevity. Contrary to where your information is coming from, my
understanding is that modeling IS driving this battery segment
along with the military. I'm reasonably confident there will be
significant breakthroughs like that nano-tech unit(Toshiba or some other
heavy-hitter like that) posted earlier this year that will impact the
market fairly shortly. The 3200s were under-sized, but 4000s would be
also. The motors would peak out at 67-69 amps on application of full
throttle and back down to the 63-65 range. This system worked well,
but we were too close to the edge to lose any capacity and complete an
FAI flight. Temps started with a 40-50 degree rise when we
started using them in the upper 70s and 80s and the same and a little more
as ambient got warmer. They got too hot. We also tend to fly
out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Realistically, if to get decent mileage out of
these things and have to stay close to 10C; then you've got to have at least
6000s+ and keep the weight down. I know zip about batteries, except
how to design conveyor systems for them, but they almost need to act like a
capacitor--very high charge, discharge rates, and unlimited cycles with
no damage. I can't imagine there aren't MANY folks working on that
concept.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course there are other alternatives--lighter
and/or smaller airframes, different motor, ESC, prop combinations--but if
you want unlimited vertical with 11 lbs--then your're going to draw 55-70
amps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gfowler@raytheon.com href="mailto:gfowler@raytheon.com">Gray E
Fowler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=discussion@nsrca.org
href="mailto:discussion@nsrca.org">discussion@nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 18, 2005 10:57
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Discussion List
(Batteries)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Richard</FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I am not a battery expert, but like
everyone else on the list that does not stop me from having an opinion
about batteries.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>First, electric
airplanes do not exactly drive the battery market,......even if 50% of the
FAI finalists use them. No other applications </FONT><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>that I am aware of uses these batteries in the
manner that we attempt, which is that massive current draw. What electric
planes do </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>to batteries is
damaging, as demonstrated by your 25 flights. </FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>I would not expect the battery market to develop a
battery capable of long life and extreme current draw since no one else
uses </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>batteries in such a
manner.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Invest in bottle of
Windex, clean the oil. </FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT size=2><TT>In fairness
to the manufacturers, I don't think they really understood that<BR>guys
potentially would go out and fly 50+ flights per week. When I
finally<BR>got all my infrastructure charging act together and made time
to<BR>practice--which wasn't all that much, I still was clicking along at
a 35<BR>flight/week pace right up to our first contest in mid June.
As you may<BR>recall, I was using 20C 3200s on a shared cost beta program.
At 11 lbs.,<BR>the airplanes were gobbling up 63-68 amps at times
and significantly heated<BR>the batteries and shortened their lives.
The manufacturer came out with<BR>some 15C 4000s--but there was
still the problem of amp draw and heat. The<BR>consensus at that
point is the batteries aren't very happy at much over 10C.<BR>The problem
I had/have is anything over the smaller batteries was going to<BR>blow the
weight limit--plus, as more information was coming out from some of<BR>the
top guys that they were getting around 50-60 flights on the
larger<BR>packs. Since I'm not a top dog, I would pretty much have
to foot the entire<BR>bill to switch to the larger units. As it
appeared to me--the batteries<BR>just aren't quite up to the task for the
average guy--so I made an interim<BR>decision to go back to IC for the
rest of the season--hoping the battery<BR>guys would come up with
something more acceptable for '06.<BR><BR>That didn't pan out very well
either, so I was effectively out for the<BR>season. (Lots of other
contributing factors also) What I told the battery<BR>manufacturer
was what a guy really needs is five sets of batteries(with the<BR>then
current stuff) and immediate service for turnaround. Have three
sets<BR>for flying and one or two sets traveling to/from.<BR><BR>I'm sold
on electric--particularly for a guy with limited practice time.
I<BR>could go on and on....<BR><BR>Richard</TT></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR><BR>Gray Fowler<BR>Principal Chemical
Engineer<BR>Composites
Engineering</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>