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<DIV>There are two mutually exclusive factors at work: ARFs and prefabs
and the need for light, strong airframes. I understand all the reasons why ARF's
and prefabs are here to stay and I even agree with some of them. What I don't
agree with is taking someone else's idea of how heavy something should be to
work, and make it one's own. There's alot of room for improvement in that
area</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In my view, a lighter but just as whale-like, 2m electric platform
will require expert building from the ground up. I challenge my pattern brethren
to start redeveloping those forgotten skills again. It's exactly what's needed
for electric at its present state of development. Prefab is great but if you
really want to save a pound or more, learn to build it from scratch and learn to
take the vibration absorbing fat out. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And if you must, at least challenge the kit makers to come up with lighter
solutions to the landing gear mounts. Nat and I have written a bit about that
before. That isn't difficult at all and it will save about a half pound by
itself on any plane that doesn't have a built in mount in the fuse.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1/16", 3/32" and 1/8" molded balsa isn't that hard a technique
to master and offers terrific strength for the weight. I'm not talking about
that goofey planking that some have passed on as molded, but reall molded
balsa-wood. Stunt guys use it all the time</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>MattK</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/18/2005 1:18:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chochhalter@direcway.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In regards to the
airframe, I am agreeing with you in a sense that the planes will e-<SPAN
class=SpellE>volve</SPAN> (grin) to be able to compliment the electric
setups.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right now we are adapting
current IC airframes.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The
advantages of “braking” with the controllers and larger props may see another
swing in basic design concepts.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Look at <SPAN class=SpellE>Nats</SPAN> Voodoo express, now that may be
the extreme end of design compared to the airframes we see now and what we
evolve to but who knows, could a redesigned curare with slim fuse make a come
back???<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Can’t wait to see
what comes next.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chuck<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
discussion-request@nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request@nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Richard
Strickland<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday,
November 18, 2005 11:58 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> discussion@nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Discussion List
(Batteries)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Gray,
Dean,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While my experience wasn't the
greatest--it really wasn't all that bad once we had the bugs worked out.
BTW, it was a Hacker system like Jason's.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One of the issues was to determine
how cool the batteries needed to be before putting them back on charge;
another was to make sure you were not over or under charging. Another
was to make sure they were balanced. But for me it came down to weight
and longevity. Contrary to where your information is coming
from, my understanding is that modeling IS driving this battery
segment along with the military. I'm reasonably confident there will be
significant breakthroughs like that nano-tech unit(Toshiba or some other
heavy-hitter like that) posted earlier this year that will impact the
market fairly shortly. The 3200s were under-sized, but 4000s would be
also. The motors would peak out at 67-69 amps on application of full
throttle and back down to the 63-65 range. This system worked well, but
we were too close to the edge to lose any capacity and complete an
FAI flight. Temps started with a 40-50 degree rise when we
started using them in the upper 70s and 80s and the same and a little more as
ambient got warmer. They got too hot. We also tend to fly
out.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Realistically, if to get decent
mileage out of these things and have to stay close to 10C; then you've got to
have at least 6000s+ and keep the weight down. I know zip about
batteries, except how to design conveyor systems for them, but they almost
need to act like a capacitor--very high charge, discharge rates, and unlimited
cycles with no damage. I can't imagine there aren't MANY folks
working on that concept.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Of course there are other
alternatives--lighter and/or smaller airframes, different motor, ESC, prop
combinations--but if you want unlimited vertical with 11 lbs--then your're
going to draw 55-70 amps.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Richard</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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